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[00:00:12] Unknown:

Hello, and welcome to podcast dot in it, the podcast about Python and the people who make it great. When you're ready to launch your next app or want to try a project you hear about on the show, you'll need somewhere to deploy it. So take a look at our friends over at Linode.   With 200 gigabit private networking, scalable shared block storage, node balancers, and a 40 gigabit public network, all controlled by a brand new API, you've got everything you need to scale up. And for your tasks that need fast computation, such as training machine learning models and running your continuous integration, they just launched dedicated CPU instances.   Go to python podcast.com/linode,   that's l I n o d e, today to get a $20 credit and launch a new server in under a minute. And don't forget to thank them for their continued support of this show.  

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[00:01:34] Unknown:

Your host as usual is Tobias Macy. And today, I'm interviewing Facundo Batista about his experiences   founding and fostering the Argentinian Python community, working as a core developer, and his overall career in Python. So, Facundo, could you start by introducing yourself?  

[00:01:48] Unknown:

Hello, Tobias. Thanks for having me.   Yes.   I'm I'm Facundo.   I   I'm an electronic   engineer.   I started programming   for fun when I was kid   learning a lot of different languages   until   when working as engineer,   found   Python   and fell in love with it, like,  

[00:02:15] Unknown:

20 years ago or 18 years ago. And do you remember how you first got introduced to Python?  

[00:02:22] Unknown:

I started to work in a telecommunications   company   where we had to process a lot of information   server side.   At that point, the language that I was   most   comfortable   with was c,   which I worked at a lot of in the in the university.   But as you may know,   processing   text server side with the c is not fun at all, so I   started to find out what what I could do. I found Perl,   and I did some developments   with Perl,   but I was, like, every all day protesting because of ugly syntax and everything. So,   work work companion told me, do you heard about Python? No. No. I didn't.   You should read this tutorial. So he gave me this tutorial for the the   official tutorial for Python   for Python.  

I think it was   2 dot 2 or 2 dot 1 at that time. And I sorry. And then when I when I when I got the tutorial, my first impression was,   this looks nice, but it's, like, too simple.   I don't know if this will be powerful enough for the processing that we need to do. So my first task we did was doing a recursive analysis   of the networks   to try to find potential   loops or something like that, which is kind of complex and lots of processing,   and Python worked just fine. So I said, oh, I really like this language. I really like this language.  

[00:04:00] Unknown:

So after you discovered Python and started using it, you have ended up, helping to found the Python Argentina user group. And I'm wondering what your overall motivation was for getting involved with that and some of the story behind your founding of the group?  

[00:04:16] Unknown:

I   the moment I started working in Python, I started, like, doing a lot of things with Python and a couple of work companion   also   used Python with me,   but nobody else knew about Python.   None of my friends knew Python at that time. So I say, I cannot be the only person in Argentina who does Python. I mean, I I knew about the the international community and everything, but there should be something in Argentina.   So   I refloat to the on all meetups.   We had   a meeting,   3 people in that original meeting, and we decided   the 3 of us were working in Python, but at the same time, we knew that somebody else should be working in Python. So we decided at some point to   start a mailing list about it, probably a web page, and   that is the reason of it. I mean, the the the needing the needing of talk with somebody else that also   used that technology, that was  

[00:05:24] Unknown:

great. And I've actually heard a number of references to people coming from Argentina who are involved in Python and both the local community there as well as the international community. And I'm curious   how large the Python Argentina user group has gotten to be over the years. It's difficult to measure because  

[00:05:41] Unknown:

we don't have a formal process for you to shine in the   in the community.   And so   it depends on how you which numbers do you take. For example,   we have a mailing list, and in that mailing list, there are   2,300   300 people. But   we know that a lot of   young people is not in the mailing list because   they tend to not use mail. We   created a Telegram   group for Python Argentina   a couple of years ago, and it's already more than 1,000   people. So it's difficult to know because we don't know how much how much   of 1 group is in the other and and etcetera. The last PyCon   Argentina we did, there were more more than a 1000 people attending.  

So it's it's a large group. And  

[00:06:38] Unknown:

Argentina itself is a fairly large country,   and the group that you have put together, it services the entirety of the nation. And I'm wondering how the overall geography and culture of your country influences the focus of the community and any of the challenges that you face in terms of trying to facilitate interaction for such a widely distributed group of people?  

[00:07:02] Unknown:

It's a problem because   it's not only that our country is large.   As I tend to say   to people visiting the country, I always say when when they come to Buenos Aires, I say to them that if you want to go to the south, you have to travel 2,000   kilometers. And if you have to go to the north, you have to travel another 2,000 kilometers. It's it's a large country, but the problem is deeper than that. This the Argentina   is   is very   centralistic.   I don't know if that's an English word, actually.   They   everything tends to happen in Buenos Aires,   with the exception of a couple of other big cities like Cordoba or Rosario or Mendoza.  

Most of the   technology   happens in Buenos Aires.   So when we did when we founded Python, we wanted to found the Python group, but at the same time, we didn't want to found just   Buenos Aires because it's   we knew that we will be excluding a lot of people. So we   from the very beginning, we when we decided that we will be addressing the whole Argentina, we decided to call the group Python Argentina.   At the same time, we started well, we we started   purely, virtually   at beginning, so that part was easy because the mailing list you can sign   anywhere. But the meetings, of course, were local, so there were there were a lot of meetings in Buenos Aires.  

When we started to new people from other provinces or cities, we started to encourage them,   do meetings in your cities,   talk with people locally. We we all   work in Python, but we   we have different problems   and or even with the same problems,   for example,   quantity of companies working with Python or show offers, etcetera.   Maybe with the same problem, the diff the solutions are different. So   let's let's   have this   group, other reason, the whole Argentina, but let's not   be Buenavada Centric   and try to   make it as federal as possible. And from your experience overall  

[00:09:32] Unknown:

of being a technologist and living and working in Buenos Aires   and interacting with people in the broader community that you that you work with,   what has been your sense as far as the level of popularity of Python as compared to other languages or technologies that are being used in Argentina?  

[00:09:50] Unknown:

I think that in that in that regard,   Argentina is not different from other countries or   areas.   We have   a a   a lot of people working in other languages, like commercial languages with a good basis   in universities   like Java or pay PHP or c plus plus.   And at the same time, we had, like,   a lot of languages that are not widely used, but they have a good community here, especially   in universities   like   Lisp or   Haskell.   But,   again, in the say in the I mean, similar with what happened in a lot in a lot of other places, Python has   a steady   growing,   but   not really   quite growing a lot   until   10 or 7 years ago, which   at some point, a lot of people started to use   Python,   like, 5 years ago or something,   like, literally   exploded with the quantity of people trying to learn Python from the science   world.  

So   I I I don't have a particularly   specific data   for Argentina   and other countries, but what I've heard and in my experience  

[00:11:20] Unknown:

is similar to what happened in US or Europe. And what of what are some of the ways that you facilitate   the growth and interaction of the community and some of the types of resources and events that you help to provide? We try to  

[00:11:36] Unknown:

our focus is in is pretty much in the community.   I mean, we do Python. We're we're a group of people   doing Python.   So our focus is to make people   talk together and get together   around Python   from the mailing list or the Telegram   groups where we provide assistance so anybody can   learn Python or   find answers for their problems around Python,   to meetings,   which we have several kinds of meetings   or or events.   Always, the idea is to   make people   get together around the language.   1 1 of   the basics,   rules that we have for   for our events in Python Argentina is that we want the events to be free. We don't want to charge you   for you to be able to talk with Python with somebody else. So the Python Argentina, for example,   was always free, which is kind   of unusual   in what the rest of the world happens. Yeah. It's definitely  

[00:12:51] Unknown:

much different than typical technology conferences that I've had experience with. And I know that in general, conference organization and management can be both time consuming and expensive. So I'm wondering how you've approached that in order   to be able to provide it as a free resource for people. Well, we have sponsors.  

[00:13:09] Unknown:

I mean, companies   we we companies sponsor the the events, so we get that money   and pay for the expenses.   We are   somehow limited   in the sense that, for example, we don't provide you for with   lunches   or T shirts for everybody   or this kind   of generic   stuff that you have when you go to a paid   events because, I mean, you are not paying for anything, so we cannot   give you lunch.   But   you can access the our focus is for you to be able   to access the information.   The information should be free   if you have money or not. So that's that's our focus.  

[00:13:56] Unknown:

And in addition to PyCon Argentina,   you have also started working on this Pycamp   event, and I'm wondering if you can describe a bit about what that is and how that got started. Well, Pycamp for me is 1 of the events that I most like  

[00:14:12] Unknown:

for   every year in in in Argentina. It's a small event. I mean, it's this is not   for   while   assistance,   we get together every year, like, 40 or 50 people in a place   that provides the basics for us to survive, like electricity,   Internet,   bathrooms,   food,   and that kind of stuff.   And we spent 4 days   coding and hacking and playing board games   and doing fun activities, like   learning   how to fight with swords and that kind of stuff. It's a very nice event   where you just go to do Python Python Python for 4 days. It's very nice. It's very nice. We have a lot of good pictures about that. I I enjoy it a lot. We have to reproduce this in other countries for people to get fun. Yeah. That definitely sounds like a lot of fun, and I'm curious if the sword fighting expertise came from within the group or if that's something that you brought somebody in from the outside for. No. It's somebody in the group that that is specializing in that. So he every every every become, he covers some swaddlers,   teach a little. But we have we we normally do also sports, like playing football or basketball   or   archery   or, for example, the last play camp,   we had a talk from an specialist   about astronomy. We were in the mountains in   a really   dark place. So he talked about   stars to us for an hour,  

[00:15:57] Unknown:

and it was very, very good. Yeah. I'll definitely add links to pictures for that for anybody who wants to take a look, And,   I'll definitely advocate for anybody else to replicate that because it sounds like a good time and something that would be worth while to help grow some community engagement and just be an excuse to get out and do something different. Yes. Exactly.   So in terms of the overall community,   I'm wondering what have been some of the main points of focus in terms of just general themes of events and talks and some of the notable projects that have been built by or for members of PyCon Argentina?  

[00:16:33] Unknown:

Well, yes. Well, the focus is   mostly mostly the people, like,   making everybody together to talk about Python, but with some specifics, like information should be free to any to anybody as I said before. But also in diversity,   we were   heavily focused on diversity   since, I don't know, 10 years ago,   similar to what the PSF   was doing   also 10 years ago before diversity was really in the agenda for   everybody,   we all we we   we were, like, pioneers   with piece PSF   around that. So   it's mostly the people, but at some at some times,   as a group, we want to attack some different projects.  

For example, 1 of the longest   in time that we had and   that is I'm most proud of   is the CDpedia.   The CDpedia is a project where   we   package the   whole Wikipedia   in a CD. I mean, original was a CD,   then we   we start the DVD version. So you have   the the or and then we we   we   also started to generate a pen drive version,   but the idea is always the same.   You go with a CD or a DVD or a pen drive,   with a computer with no Internet at all, and you have the whole Wikipedia content.   Of course, we are addressing the Spanish part of the Wikipedia   even as we   have   the idea to make it multilanguage at some point, but the idea is for you to go to with a CD or DVD, for example, to a school   in in a   that is distant from any city,   and you have computers, but you don't have Internet,   which is   quite common in Argentina because we have so many rural areas.  

So the idea is that you have a computer, you don't have Internet,   but having the CDpedia,   you can get all the information from Wikipedia,   which is very, very good project. It's there since, like,  

[00:18:55] Unknown:

13 years or something. That definitely is great to be able to provide that information access. And I'm curious what are some of the challenges and strategies   that you're faced with to   make it possible to have all of that information   available offline and internally linked so that it doesn't require any outbound network access and   any potential applications that that that could be made from that project to things like maybe packaging up,   sections of the Internet archive for similar purposes.  

[00:19:29] Unknown:

I think that it's very difficult   to make it generic because   the   the processing of the Wikipedia pages are so specific for Wikipedia pages   because   they need of   compress them at the maximum.   So it's it's very difficult to to   to make it generic.   The the   challenge   around the projects   are mostly about   the compression   for,   pages and images on 1 side, but also the index is very difficult to to to achieve.   The   remember that we originally made to make a CD, so CDs are slow.   So if you the moment you want to find for something and open that specific page, you cannot really be,   I don't know, reading 100 megabyte to uncompress something in memory.  

But you you should   have small blocks.   Yeah. Access you should have access in small blocks.   Other big challenge   is,   how do you   determine   which pages   will you will you include,   and which images   from those pages   will you include   in the in the CD, PDF? Because if you if you make it if you make it fit for a CD, you have 600   megabytes. But if you aim for a,   DVD, you have, like, almost   5 gigabytes.   And at the same time, we have a version   for,   with   with all images and all pages   for that that is   AML to pen drives.   That is around 13 gigabytes the last time we we compiled it. But the the the the the process   the process of selecting with patients is quite quite difficult. But that's only the the technical   challenge of a project like this because you have also the social challenge.  

The moment you have a CD or the moment you have a DVD with the whole Wikipedia   there,   How do you distribute it?   Because it's not something you cannot you can   well, we we we we we have it for download, but   if you have if you are in the problem that you don't have good Internet in this call, how do you originally download it? So   we have a success regarding that   that Shimmy Wales, which is the founder of Wikipedia,   as a gift   to a person no. Sorry. It's it was the   the the way around.   A person that   has this   company   working with the   education ministry in Argentina   made as a gift for chimney whales the possibility to distribute   the CDPD in all Argentina.  

So we had the disc   in all schools in Argentina,   I think   around 2,011   or something, which is very which is was a very good thing. Another aspect of the project too is that because Wikipedia  

[00:22:57] Unknown:

is a continually evolving body of information,   there's the issue of   staleness of information where   some pages, for instance, are going to be unmodified because they're historical records that don't necessarily have a lot of flux, but for any sort of scientific information that might have been updated since the last time the information was compiled, there's the challenge of being able to redistribute those updates. And I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that problem or any ways of maybe sending incremental updates for people who already have an existing copy or because of the fact that it's entirely,   self referential, if,   if that's even viable.  



[00:23:36] Unknown:

We analyzed that a couple of times. It's it was very difficult to produce incrementing   incrementals   because at some point, we we did some stats   at some point. And it was, like, almost   there were there are so many changes. And   as op a lot of pages are referenced   by a lot of other pages.   You have, like you you needed, like, 7 I I think the the number was around 6   65%   of the pages needed to modify.   So at that at that point, you just   get a a a new snapshot   and deliver a new a new snapshot and incremental   is not   it was not worth it. The problem was yes. The problem of   pages going stale is is is a problem of   all snapshots. The moment you have the moment you get an snapshot, you are doomed   with that. But there is a similar challenge around that that what you can do to prevent   or mostly avoid,   people doing   bad things to their Wikipedia pages and you distributing them as as as truth. I prefer to have this page about, I don't know, this scientific thing that is 2 months old, but it's true.  

That's something that is today   old, but it's a lie or it's   a it's a hack about something or   so we have a lot of algorithms   about when when we decide to include the page in the in the snapshot,   which   version of that page we choose.   We   in a lot of situations, we don't choose the latest page.   So   it's it's complicated.  

[00:25:30] Unknown:

Yeah. It's definitely a complex challenge. And as you said, it's not just the technical. It's also the social aspects of it. And because of the fact that   a lot of the people who are using it don't have Internet access, it's not necessarily viable to just ship those increments over the Internet. You would have to have another physical medium of sending it along and then have a way of merging the information on a hard drive or something like that. So Right. Best best of luck in in in that, overall effort. And then beyond your involvement in Python Argentina   and working on projects such as CDpedia,   you have also been working as a core developer for CPython, and I'm wondering how you got started on that path   and what specific areas of the language and runtime you've been most involved with and most focused on.  



[00:26:15] Unknown:

I started I have this problem   around 2,002,   where I started   a personal project   for managing my own money, my own finances.   And quickly, I found out I found out that float as a data type was   not a good fit for handling money. So trying to see   how you can   handle money in in Python, I found out that there was   this idea of creating a decimal   data type, which is the the best fit for handle money,   but the data type was not really there.   So   in my original mails mails, Guido   Van Rossum suggested that   the data type the data the decimal data type is what I needed,   and I decided to   make it happen. There was   some code around there, and there is this spec from IBM,   which is   specify exactly how the decimal data type   work.  

So I started to work in the decimal module.   I received a lot of help from people that knew a lot   about   numbers   and algorithms   like   Tim Peters   or Eric Snow   or   well, there is a there was a lot of people involved,   but   my main,   success there was to   start and   finish a very complicated   PEP   that was was is the decimal   the decimal module, and then implementing the the module. At that point, I become a core developer because I was committing a lot of code and   committing a lot of tests,   for the well,   basically, working in the in the decimal module.   Beyond the decimal module itself,   I   like to participate   in   Python   back days a lot, and I started to   create   small events in Argentina   for people to grab bags of CPython and work on them. And I normally tend to work on   stuff like that in   in Python   sprints and everything.  

But   I   even even as I'm a core developer, I really don't spend a lot of time with the source code. I'm I the last   15 years or something or   mostly the last 10 years, I was heavily focused   in the community part of Python and not so much of the code. I tend to do a commit,   every I don't know. Every   several months because of helping somebody   with,   with patches   our bugs, the address, but   it's more it's most an effort of   creating   a community of people helping with the with the code and helping with the code myself.   For example, I participated   in a several   Google summit of calls for people who wanted to to do coding in in CPython and, like, that kind of  

[00:29:45] Unknown:

stuff. And I'm curious what it is about the Python language and community that has caused you to spend so much of your time and attention on it as opposed to other endeavors that you might go,   that that you might spend your time on or other languages that you might be using professionally or personally?  

[00:30:02] Unknown:

On on 1 side, the Python the Python language itself is something very nice and fun to work with. It's something   which works   good enough in most of the context that I use the language,   or, in my particular case, in all the context, I use a Brahmin language. So   I I really don't have the needing of using other languages for when I do projects in my free time   for fun on or or learning   technologies,   I do Python because I like it. And then I I   finished working as a   Python   software engineer   in a couple of companies. I I'm working in in Canonical   since more than 10 years ago   doing Python, so   I I use Python everywhere.  

On the other hands,   the community   is 1 of the healthiest   communities   that I found in the software   world,   there was   always   this good   attitude   of people around the   the language.   People   the community was always very welcoming,   always very respectful,   and it's a good place to be,   for   people to encourage to be. It happened to me a lot that   getting people   from other languages into Python in Argentina, 1 of the aspects   was that,   I really like this, I don't know, mailing list because I can't make a silly question and nobody will hit me in the head with something.   Or,   specifically   speaking about diversity,   there is a lot of   non   male   white   goods of the economic   position people   that is   really   happy with the community. And this is   this I think this represents   a status of the Python community around the globe that is   is is very good. It's an   it's very good, but at the same time,   it's like   I don't know if if an anomaly, but it's not usual   that,   communities are   so well behaved.  



[00:32:39] Unknown:

Yeah. It's definitely remarkable the amount of effort that has been put in by members of the community globally to help foster that overall   sense of welcome   to new people of all skill levels and just the fact that it has been able to be   maintained and sustainable   as as the community has grown beyond its original roots is pretty remarkable. And I think the fact that there is an organization in the form of the PSF at the core of it to help drive a lot of those efforts   and set standards for the community has helped to allow it to scale to that, to the point that it has.  

[00:33:17] Unknown:

Yes. Yes. Probably. And it's, for example, the PSF always,   well, made a focus about the the diversity.   And,   for example, we every year in these pay camps, we do.   This the the the pay camp is the only event in Argentina that's not free because, I mean, you have to pay for the hotel   or and everything.   But we normally gives,   money to people to be able to attend,   And we do a focus on diversity there with PSF   sponsorship   for specifically for that, which makes the community more diverse. And at some point, that will be   it's a it's a positive   circle that   making the community more diversity will attract more diversity   itself. And   at some point, we can start being equals   in in in the community.  



[00:34:17] Unknown:

And as a user of the Python language and a committer to the runtime   for such a long period.   I'm sure that there are aspects   of the language that you've run into that you would like to see improved or modified, and I'm wondering if there's anything notable that you would like to see addressed in the near to medium future.  

[00:34:36] Unknown:

I think that the 1 of the aspect I I in in general sense, I am very happy with the language.   It   for example, a lot of people say it's   it's slow in some situations, but I   not really   it's it's that's not really a problem for me. What I will   really want to see improved in the   midterm is the start time   for   for the la for the for the Python process.   The the time   that's   the   is there between   you type Python 3 in the in the terminal,   and the script really starts executing.   This   that that time, I think that really hurts a lot of different areas where Python could be more widely   spread.  

And it it's the problem is that you cannot really   execute   a 3,000,000 pythons in a millisecond.   I I'm exaggerating,   but that's the idea.  

[00:35:42] Unknown:

And outside of your work on Python Argentina   and the CPython   runtime and some of the other open source projects that you've mentioned. What are some of the other areas that you spend your time and projects that you're most proud of? I I I really use a lot of time of my life to  

[00:36:02] Unknown:

make my kids   happy,   make them grow, and   be with them,   and enjoy them while they are growing. They are still small, but time   goes by so fast.   I do tennis. I love tennis playing.   I don't know. I I I   really, a lot of my   free time, I put it in in computers   and software projects and community. 1 of the projects   yes. 1 of the project that I I   spend a lot of time   is   is 1 called   Faves.   That is a automatic   virtualenvwrapper   for your projects.   It's more than a virtualenvwrapper   in the sense that   you really don't know that you are using a virtualenv.   In your project or in your terminal,   you only specify the dependencies.  

The process   or your interactive interpreter or whatever   executes   inside the virtualenv,   but you don't really   need to know that the virtualenv is under there or how   to create it or how to   activate it or anything, which is makes   it very, very good for people starting in Python because   they don't need to install dependencies   or anything. They just if they use phase,   they just   specify the dependencies that they want,   and the the script will run-in a virtual end with only those dependencies   auto automatically.  

[00:37:44] Unknown:

And how would you characterize   the overall influence   that your involvement as a core developer   and with the Python Argentina group and just the overall influence that that has had on your life and career? I don't know if the  

[00:38:00] Unknown:

being a core developer itself influenced a lot of what I do in Python Argentina.   What   really,   affects what I do in Python Argentina was, in that in that sense,   being part of the Python Software Foundation, being part of the   group of   people involved in making the language better   and then translating   or translating   a lot   of those attitudes   and good things to have   from overall PSF to   to Argentina,   specifically.   Regarding my career, well, I'm an I'm an electronic engineer. I started working at telecommunications   company   20 years ago   and working as an engineer. But then when I started   being more and more involved with Python,   I was   a head of   developers   in a phone company in   around 2006, then   go went back to work as an electronic engineer in also another telecommunication   company, and then   sample to Canonical.  

Been doing Python   there   almost 11 years now. So it heavily,   influenced my career because   I really work as a developer   even if I didn't,   study that in the university.  

[00:39:29] Unknown:

Well, for anybody who wants to get in touch with you or follow along with the work that you're doing, I'll have you add your preferred contact information to the show notes. And so with that, I'll move us into the picks. And this week, I'm going to choose a book that I picked up from the library recently that's been a lot of fun called the Dictionary of Difficult Words. And it's just a bunch of different words that you wouldn't typically use in everyday language that are interesting to say or hear, and they've got   useful and complex definitions. So it's just great to   explore language in a fun and entertaining way. And there are a lot of funny illustrations to accompany the words, so it's great to sit down and look through it with your kids. So I've been having fun with that. And with that, I'll pass it to you, Fukundo. Do you have any picks this week? Well, I I  

[00:40:12] Unknown:

I will encourage   anybody working with virtual lens   to take a look at phase   and start it's it's like,   at at   wrapper, but are you you're already using 1.   What is the benefit for it? But the moment you start   really using it,   you you will not stop using it. It's it's it's very, very   it's very, very helpful in the everyday,  

[00:40:44] Unknown:

Python usage. Alright. I'll have to take a look at that. Well, thank you very much for for taking the time today to join me and discuss your experience working with Python and helping to contribute to the growth of the community. I appreciate all your efforts on that front, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Bye bye.  

[00:41:04] Unknown:

Thank you for listening. Don't forget to check out our other show, the Data Engineering Podcast at data engineering podcast.com   for the latest on modern data management.   And visit the site of pythonpodcast.com   to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.   And if you've learned something or tried out a project from the show, then tell us about it. Email host@podcastinit.com   with your story.   To help other people find the show, please leave a review on Itunes and tell your friends and coworkers.