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Hello, and welcome to podcast dot in it, the podcast about Python and the people who make it great. When you're ready to launch your next app or want to try a project to hear about on the show, you'll need somewhere to deploy it. So take a look at our friends over at Linode.   With 200 gigabit private networking, scalable shared block storage, node balancers, and a 40 gigabit public network, all controlled by a brand new API, you've got everything you need to scale.   And for those tasks that need fast computation, such as training machine learning models or building your deployment pipeline, they just launched dedicated CPU instances.   Go to python podcast.com/linode,   that's l I n o d e, to get a $20 credit today and launch a new server in under a minute. And don't forget to say thanks for their continued support of the show. And don't forget to visit the site at python podcast.com   to subscribe to the show, sign up for the newsletter, and read the show notes.  

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Practical AI is a show hosted by Daniel Whitenak and Chris Benson about making artificial intelligence practical, productive, and accessible to everyone. You'll hear from AI influencers and practitioners, and they'll keep you up to date with the latest news and resources so you can cut through all the hype. As you were at the, Thanksgiving table with your your friends and family, were you talking about the fear of AI? Well, I I wasn't at the Thanksgiving table because my wife has forbidden me from doing so.  

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Oh, I It's it's off limits for for me, lest I drive her insane because I never stop. New episodes premiere every Monday. Find this show at changelaw.com/practicalai  

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or wherever you listen to  

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podcasts. You listen to this show to learn and stay up to date with the ways that Python is being used, including the latest in machine learning and data analysis.   For even more opportunities to meet, listen, and learn from your peers, you don't want to miss out on this year's conference season.   We have partnered with O'Reilly Media for the Strata Conference in San Francisco on March 25th   and the Artificial Intelligence Conference in New York City on April 15th.   In Boston, starting on March 17th, you still have time to grab a ticket to the enterprise data world.   And from April 30th to May 3rd is the Open Data Science Conference.  

Go to python podcast.com/conferences   to learn more and to take advantage of our partner discounts when you register. Your host as usual is Tobias Macy. And today, I'm interviewing Naomi Seeder about her career and contributions in the Python community. So, Naomi, could you start by introducing yourself?  

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Sure. I'm Naomi Seeder.   Currently, I serve as the chair of the board of directors of the Python Software Foundation.   I'm also the leader of a development team that works in Python for Dick Blick Art Materials.   And,   I have a 3rd edition now out now of my book, The Quick Python Book. And do you remember how you first got introduced to Python?   Indeed I do. This is a story that I'm fond of telling, although it does make me seem   really old, which I suppose I am.   And that is,   it was   actually at a Linux fest,   in Moscone Center in San Francisco in 2, 001.   I was the tech director at a school, and,   my assistant and I had been allowed to go out to,   Linux fest for the tutorial   days. We weren't actually allowed to stay for the whole conference. We had to get back and cover things at school. But that meant though that we could attend   a day long tutorial by this guy, Guido van Rossum, who was talking about his language Python.  

So I actually learned Python from Guido himself the first time,   back in 2, 001. That was,   Python 2.1,   I believe.  

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And it's yeah. It's always great having the opportunity to talk to people who've been using Python for so long into its history because   as,   I guess, relative newcomer to the language, I don't have as much of the context of some of the history and evolution of Python and where it came from. So   I'm curious what it is about Python in particular that has persuaded you to spend so much of your time and energy on the language and the community as opposed to any of the innumerable other tools or platforms that you could be spending your time with? Yeah. That's actually something I've wondered about myself.  

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Back in in in the old days, even in the nineties and whatever, there seemed to be,   new languages, new technologies coming around quite a bit. And when I started doing Python,   I really liked it because of, I was in education and it was,   a great teaching language, particularly compared to something like C or something like Java. But,   I did at the time kind of expect that this would be an interesting thing   that then probably another interesting thing would come along and this wouldn't last so long.   And I think   I would say for   the the reasons that I stayed with with Python so long,   were kind of a combination.  

The language continued to grow and develop so that it has stayed relevant for things that I need to do   in terms of handling data,   presenting things via web interface, just just various things. But at the same time, I think it was   the attention paid even from the early days to the notion of community.   And then the way that that has developed,   that,   is really something that is very, very attractive.   I know   sometimes I'm associated with the quote because quite frankly, I stole it with his permission,   from, Brett Cannon. But the notion that I came for the language, I stayed for the community,   I think resonates  

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with a lot of people, and I know it certainly has always resonated for me. Yeah. I can definitely agree with that sentiment, and I've heard it echoed a number of times and it still rings true. And I was actually just having a conversation recently with somebody about how it's kind of anomalous, the degree of sort of goodwill and community that has developed around this language versus something like Java that has much more of a sort of corporate   progenitor   where you don't really think about somebody going to a Java conference per se. There might be subprojects within that language community that have a vibrant ecosystem of people who are dedicating their time to it. But as a language itself,   there aren't really that many cases where this many people have rallied around it and built up this entire sort of culture of friendship and openness   and collaboration.  

You know, there are definitely other languages that do have that, but it's not as common as you might think if your first language is Python and your first exposure to a community is the Python community. Yeah. I think that's quite right. I mean, I I know I've heard,  

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some positive things from people about, like, the Go community and stuff like that. But just, I think we've basically created kind of a virtuous cycle here. A lot of people now,   are exposed to the language because of the strength of the community.   And 1 of the first things they then want to do, maybe when they go back to their own communities, is replicate that. So that's that's a very powerful thing. And having used Python for so much of your career, I'm wondering what your primary uses of it are in your current day to day role.   So partly, I, lead a a team of engineers. So I do a certain amount of code review   in in Python   and   not so much production coding, but I also do a lot of what should I say?  

Kind of utility   and glue type programming,   extracting reports, being able to move data around,   being able to sometimes do a proof of concept on a process,  

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things like that. So I do actually code in Python pretty much every day even though my primary role is is more management leadership. As you mentioned, you are the current chair of the board of the PSF and have been for a few years now. So I'm wondering what your primary responsibilities   are in that position   and some of the activities that you're engaged with, you know, within a given week or month.  

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So I get asked this a certain amount, and I guess the first thing I always say is, well, it's probably not as glamorous as you imagine. But basically the role of the chair of the board is   to make sure that   the board has what it needs to function, to make sure that we have meetings set up and that we have agendas for the meetings, to make sure that we're fulfilling our responsibilities   of of kind of management and oversight.   I also am sort of the direct point of contact   for Eva Yalowska,   our executive   director.   So,   she reports to the board, but you can't have 13 bosses. So in effect,   she talks to me a lot. So we spend a fair amount of time consulting on kind of day to day operations, things like that. And then there are various questions that come up into,   our various mailing lists and things like that where   and we need to be sure that we have have some kind of response from the board.  

And   I see it as kind of my responsibility   to lead that and make sure that that happens whether or not it's my opinion, but still that we actually do come forward with with some kind of response as needed. And there are a lot of times where I've been in conversations  

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where the PSF comes up and there is initially   maybe some confusion   or misunderstanding about the role of the PSF   in relation to the Python language   and some of the activities   and just overall   engagement   of what happens in the PSF,   as it relates to your day to day Python developer or people working on various open source projects or different community events?  

[00:10:32] Unknown:

Yeah. I I think that's quite true, actually.   And,   I think the first point is that the PSF   does not have anything to do with the decisions   taken on   the actual   design and implementation   of Python the language.   That is   the core developers. And of course, there's been a lot of attention on that lately as they have worked on and started to implement a new governance model. We support them. And honestly, I expect our connections to grow even closer over time, but we do not have any say so over yes or no on the Walrus operator or something like that. That's not our department. On the other hand, what we do do is that we hold the intellectual property   of Python and the trademarks for Python   and   for Python and all of those things.  

And   this is actually   a pretty important job because we couldn't really have an open source language unless   somebody made sure that we had the rights to all of those bits that go out as, say, Python.   So, so that's definitely,   an important function, but probably we spend more time on just managing and fostering the community.   So   we give   quite a bit of money. I think we're approaching   $300, 000 this year supporting Python community events around the world. So, you know, as, as community is an important part of what makes Python Python, that's what we spend, I'd say, the vast majority of our time on is how we can support that, how we can move those things forward, what we can do to help that   inclusive global community  

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grow and thrive. And for somebody who is just using Python to build a web application   or manage their servers or do some data analysis,   what are some of the ways that they can most effectively   engage with the PSF or help support its mission or,   even just talk to somebody to get a better under get a better understanding   of what its goals and priorities are?  

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So   to kind of unroll those, I guess, from the back To find out more about the PSF,   you can visit python.org/psf,   and that is kind of our landing page. We also have a mailing list, psfpython.org.   That that's kind of an inbound address for anything   PSF related.   So if you have any questions, the board sees that, our staff see that. So that's kind of a   starting point in terms of how you can find out a little bit more. In terms of becoming   involved, it's kind of a 2 pronged thing for people who have time and inclination to   get involved with events and organizing and helping things happen. I always say   it's kind of think globally, but act locally. That is the best way to get involved is to find   the meetup that is in your area,   the Python   user group, whatever it might be, and   help those events grow. If there is no such thing in your area, then   please contact us and we'll try to help you figure out maybe how you can start a meetup. 1 thing that people don't realize   is that the PSF does support meetup fees for a Python meetup since that's usually a pretty effective way of getting the word out. We we don't want to people have to pay those fees themselves. So so that's 1 thing we can do to help people get started or even continue.  

Supporting the PSF directly. Like maybe you've heard that, Oh, PSF sponsors lots of things in Africa and South America. And I think that's great. I'd like to help out. You can become   a supporting member for a $99   a year   and stay tuned. Cause I think we're going to be adding some other options to that in the fairly near future. But so you can actually become a member of the PSF that way, which gives you the right to vote in elections, vote for board members and things like that. So that certainly helps. And at a minimum, I always encourage people to just go to   python.org/psf,   find the membership thing and just sign up as a basic member. That's free, but it helps us kind of keep in touch with you. It gives us an idea of the level of support we've got. And then, you know, maybe later you can decide to do something more. So so those are are some of the things that you can do. Certainly, as I say, please feel free to contact us. And board members and various people from PSF   try to make it to conferences as well. When we do, we're there for people to talk to us. So again, don't hesitate to come up and and talk to a PSF member or board member if you spot 1, at a conference.  



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And how much of the overall success of the Python language and the growth of the community do you think is directly attributable to the PSF and the support that they provide versus the,   overall ethos of the language  

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and the people who engage with it? It's it's really hard to separate those 2. I think that   to get where we are now, where we are arguably   1 of, at least 1 of the top 5 languages in popularity,   probably higher than that on most people's scales. I think to get   there without   the community   and   to have the community, I think that's really been the work of the PSF.   Without that part, I don't think we would be there. I think you can find lots of examples throughout history of technically good ideas that never quite made it for other reasons.   So,   I think, yes, the the language is great, but without the support of the community.  

And again, I I have a hard time distinguishing the community from the PSF. They seem to be sort of 2 sides of the same thing. But without that, I don't think we would be where we are today. No. And I think to the fact that there is this organizational structure at the core of the Python community that is there to help keep an eye out to the long term versus  

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the day to day work that people are doing with their heads down just trying to get something done. I think that that's definitely valuable as well, particularly   as   the language and the community grows and matures,   and there are always new languages or new forms to capture people's attention and imagination.   But I'm wondering what your thoughts are in terms of some of the forward looking efforts as far as maintaining the longevity and overall viability of the language in its community, particularly   as we bring in new generations of developers   who are growing up with the language as always having been there versus maybe the original generation that were escaping their original pain with more lower level languages or languages that didn't necessarily have the ergonomics of Python?  



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Yeah. I I think there there are, a number of issues going forward that we as as a community, the PSF certainly will be,   trying to be in in the in the lead on some of these things that we need to think about. And I think,   particularly   an issue that we will continue to work on and it will continue to be an issue is   how to make an open source language and a community based around an open source language   really sustainable.   And   that's in terms of both   volunteers   managing large community groups, but also in terms of the developers contributing to it. This is a hard problem that to my knowledge, nobody has really solved yet.   But   it is and it will continue to be an issue that in the case of something like Python, you have something that people are using in businesses to make a lot of money that is largely created by people who are giving their time. And that kind of asymmetry   needs we need to have better solutions for that going forward.  

And no, I don't know what they are, but we need to figure that out.  

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And so in addition to the work that you do with the PSF and for your day job and a number of other community activities and   efforts that you're involved with, You have also spent time   working on writing the 2nd and third editions of the book, the quick Python book. So I'm wondering if you can start by giving a synopsis   of what that book covers   and some of the   ideas behind who the target audience is. Yeah. This book  

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is really aimed at people who already know how to code, but who are coming to Python from,   some other language.   So we're not really attempting to teach basic coding concepts. Instead, it's really aimed at being, if you know what you want to do, but you want to know how to do it in Python,   then this is the book for you.   So   as such, it covers most of what I would say are the,   intermediate   to to moderately advanced features of the language.   We don't spend much time on things like metaclasses.   We haven't really it doesn't really go into the depths of asyncio or things like that. But instead,   somebody who's coming in wanting to get in 1 place,  

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kind of a quick grasp of the language as a whole so that they can go ahead and be productive in it. And given that you came in working on the 2nd edition, that leads me to assume that there was a first edition. So I'm wondering what the story is there as far as how you got involved,   what the overall process was to update the book to the current state,   and some of the, efforts that were involved as far as either trying to maintain the voice or adapt the voice to what something that you're familiar with and comfortable with writing in. The first edition was done in,  

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1999   for Python 1.52.   And,   the original authors   had,   after 10 years, it was 2, 008, 2009,   they were looking at updating it because Python 3 was coming in and then, then Manning, the publishers felt that would be a a good time to do a major update.   The original authors were not available   or interested,   in doing that.   They had done   really a pretty good job.   The style that they used is sort of compatible with mine, which tends to be reasonably   informal and kind of a straightforward,   simple style. So, you know, the aim being readability, which is appropriate for a Python book, I guess. The the publishers weren't able to find anybody to do that book. And   because of other various projects, I had a a literary agent who was in touch with them. So that's how I got in touch with Manning. And this was pitched as honestly   a a fairly easy job. All you need to go do is go through and make sure that it's compatible with Python 3. Of course, going from Python 1 5 to to, 15 to to Python 3,   turned out to be a major, major job.  

So it was it was probably on the order of doing a fresh book. There were certainly lots of things I left, but   going that far,   that was written before pep 8 was really a thing.   There were all sorts of different coding styles.   Practically every example in the in the book had something that really wasn't quite PEP 8 and needed to be fixed.   We ended up actually   removing the last few chapters because they covered things that were no longer applicable. I think there was something about Zope or something in it, which is fine. I started with Zope too, but that that's no longer an important platform that you would put in a in a book pitched at that level.   So   we basically had to do quite a lot of work. It ended up being   a a pretty major rewrite.  

And   I think fortunately, I started from a good place. But then the things that I added and the stuff that I wrote, I with the result, we got, I think, even better reviews for the 2nd edition.   And then   as we started talking about it a couple of years ago, it's like, well,   might be time for another refresh.   So that 1 was somewhat easier in terms of the language, but we also decided that given the way tech books go these days, we needed to add more,   like, little quick check exercises so that people could confirm they'd gotten whatever was in the previous little section.   And we also added some longer lab exercises   at the end of each chapter so people could have a little bit more practical experience with the things covered. Cat it a case study at the end. So that ended up actually being   a fairly   extensive thing too. I think the lesson there is if a publisher tells you, don't worry. This is gonna be an easy job. Don't believe me.  



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Basically, any anytime somebody says it's going to be easy, that usually means that they're just trying to get you on the hook and then  

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you go All you need to do is our famous last words. Yes. Yes.  

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And in at least the 3rd edition, I don't know if it was present in the 2nd edition, but the tail end of the book covers   some introductory aspects of data analysis and data manipulation.   So I'm wondering,   if that is an artifact of the sort of current climate of Python and programming in general, or if that's something that you incorporated in that second edition   as sort of, something that was starting to become important. No. The  

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final chapters were more involved with kind of the beginnings of some web   concepts for for web programming.   And when we got to the 3rd edition,   the climate had changed such that we felt,   it was really,   really important that we address   some of the   of the foundations that you need to use Python for data analysis. I, you know, it we we're not trying to be a data science book per se that that's, you know, many other books about that, But rather just now that you've been through the basics of Python, here's how you can kind of clean and normalize your data so that the data science can start. And that's that's kind of a reflection of the climate. And it's also sort of a reflection of the experience I've had over the years since even from the beginning, I've found that that's been 1 of the main things where, where Python has always saved me is when you need to   do that whole ETL pipeline and and and get data ready for some use. It's been invaluable.  



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Yeah. And even when you're using it for web development contexts, there's always data somewhere. There's always a need to be able to take in some source   and be able to perform some manipulations   on it and make it sane and usable somewhere else down the line, whether that's pulling from your database and sending it up to an API or receiving input from an API post request and putting it to the database, or as you said, building out a ETL pipelines or just systems management. It's always something that's useful no matter what domain you're working with.   Absolutely. Yeah. And in the overall process of writing the book and updating it, particularly going from that 1.5   to 3 dot x, which is, as you said, a a big leap. I mean, people are having issues going from 2 to 3. So  

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Right. But I'm wondering what you found to be some of the most interesting aspects of the language or the standard library that you were exposed to, just by virtue of having to dig deep into it that you either didn't really know about or didn't depreciate fully until having to go through that process? You know, I think partly doing something like this, I think partly coming from the perspective that I had, which is I knew the Python community and I knew that I guess to my mind, the worst thing that could happen would be to have these people that I knew ask me about things and I wouldn't know because I hadn't studied them, if you know what I mean. So   I really just kind of almost over   every aspect of the language. I think a couple of things that, that maybe stand out are   kind of digging through the collections library to understand the pieces there.  

I'm not sure it's an underappreciated   library, but it certainly is quite a piece of work that that people, like, I think should be aware of as they come into Python and the many things that it can do and the way that it does them Pythonically.   And, you know, a little bit in terms of the ins and outs and and the many confusions of packaging   and   distributing,   Python, things like that. I'm not sure I actually   now know the answers to that, but I do know how complex the problem is and and several of the various attempts at solutions and things like that. So, so there, there are a lot of things that way. It really does as you work through all of that. And at some points it seems endless,  

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but it it does actually give you a a pretty wide understanding, I think. And over the course of your career, I know that you've worked with a large variety of other languages   and other language communities. So I'm wondering what have been some of the most useful lessons that you have learned both from those communities that you'd like to see brought back into   the Python ecosystem   or from those language implementations that you'd like to see in the Python language, and then in the reverse, things that you would like to see taken from Python and brought into some of these other ecosystems and languages? That strikes me as kind of a hard question because I have known  

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lots of people who have coded in other languages, and I've coded in a number of languages over the years. But I'm not sure,   particularly back in the day when I was was involved with those,   that I ever really ran across anything like those communities.   I think   maybe the Linux community   in   the, you know, up to 2010   or so would be about the last time I went to a Linux fest. But I think there there were some some interesting things about community.   And otherwise for for the other languages, as I say, I never saw   as much in the way of community. I mean, I guess I can recall being on c mailing lists back in the day, and the only thing that I seem to recall then are sort of people arguing a lot over   how to format their code or things like that. It's probably unfair. But, you know, I I I guess I I don't really   see that historically   a lot of other languages have spent nearly the effort on that. Maybe in the past 10 years, they they have more so, but I I I don't think I can really comment very well on that. So,   it's what all communities need to do in this day and age is continue to think about what makes them inclusive,   how they can bring people in and make them feel welcome and and part of the community.  

And that can be across, you know, a wide number of axis.   Gender is popularly mentioned but there are all sorts of other ways too where people feel not included   and communities that don't deal with that I think do not have as strong a future as communities who do find a way to deal with that. So that's that's the thing I think and I I think the Python community has certainly tried hard to work on that. We have not always been successful, but we continue to try. And I think that is 1 of our strengths. And so beyond your work with the PSF  

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and on the quick Python book and your day to day work of leading a technical team. What are some of the other projects   that you have been involved with that you're most proud of, either technical or otherwise?  

[00:30:24] Unknown:

Well, so   I think it was   in   2, 006, 2, 000 and 7.   I actually organized a bunch of educators   to we created a number of improvements and patches for the turtle library.   So we actually had all of our patches in Python 2.5's   turtle library, I think it was. Sadly, well, not sadly, it was actually an improvement.   In the next version of Python, they used Gregor Lingle's X turtle library, which did many more things much more nicely,   and that's the current turtle library. But it was actually my first kind of contribution to the language.   And of course, it involved bringing together a number of different ideas and getting them in it ready to go. So,   so I was very proud of that at the time. I've done a number of things with adding events to PyCon.  

So most recently,   I,   was involved am involved   with the hatchery program, which is a way that you can start new events at PyCon.   And, the first event, the 1 that really was my motivation for for working with people to get this mechanism started, was the picon charles, the Spanish language track. So,   I have I have been   very, very happy to see, Last year, we had the 1st track of talks ever at PyCon US in Spanish,   and,   people were very excited about that. It's always very   gratifying to be able to give   people a voice that they didn't have before.   So,   that will continue again this year, and I'm I'm very excited to see that happen.  



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And looking forward, what are some of the other projects   or trends   in the Python community and ecosystem   or in technology as a whole that you are most excited about either just   witnessing or participating in in the near to medium future? That's an interesting question.  

[00:32:25] Unknown:

I think the 1 thing that I am most interested in watching develop technically,   certainly in Python, is   what sort of answers we come up with for   basically the problem of the GIL and getting multi threaded performance   improved so that we don't have problems with threading that we have right now.   That is   a really tough technical problem. I am not counting on having an explanation or an an an answer for that, but it's a problem I followed for some time. And I I think that would be a very interesting development   because I think the pressure for coming up with an answer for that continues to grow. So I have confidence that our community will find an answer and I'm really looking forward to seeing what trick we use to to get around that. Yeah. That's definitely 1 of the ones that comes up most often when I'm talking to somebody who is  

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not directly involved in Python, but is sort of viewing it as a bystander and possibly working in a a different language environment, whether it's compiled   or something,  

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that natively supports multiprocess or multithreading of, oh, that's the language with the GIL. Right? Why would you wanna use that? It's Right. Right. Right. So yeah. Well, it's not that bad, but it's, yes, it is an issue. And and, it's have having followed the discussions and some of the problems,   it it's a tough 1, but I still think somebody will crack it. And I'm just I'm really interested to see  

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what course that will take. And are there any other aspects   of the PSF or the quick Python book or your overall career and involvement with the Python language and community that you'd like to discuss further before we close out the show? I  

[00:34:10] Unknown:

think I I'll throw in 1 last thing, which is that,   a few weeks ago, I gave my first Python talk in Spanish.   And so this has actually been, you know, whatever you want to to to include of this is fine. But this has actually been,   something that I've been spending a lot of time on is the human language   side of things. And I found that very interesting in that giving a talk in another language is really hard and yet all of those of us who speak English expect everybody else to do it all the time without understanding   that. So I'm real interested   in the development   of,   you know, the international communities using Python and how we can help them both in English, maybe by by improving our documentation   and things like that, and also support them as they develop communities using their native languages, whether that's Chinese or Spanish   or Portuguese or anything else, Hindi. So, so that's been kind of an interest of mine for the past couple of years now. Yeah. It's always interesting seeing  

[00:35:16] Unknown:

the sort of prevalence or dominance of English in technical communities   because of the fact that a lot of early computer systems were only able to represent Latin characters and just the lasting legacy that that has provided   and some of the ways that that's actually starting   to evolve into languages that support Unicode natively that'll allow people to define   new language systems that are more native to their spoken tongue,   and also things like natural language processing,   centric because of the corpora that are available to it and some of the ways that new techniques are evolving to make it easier to provide different textual analysis run times for being able to interpret these different natural languages and be able to evaluate and incorporate new cultures and new languages as a result. Right. Yeah. I I think there's there's a lot to be done there. Alright. Well, for anybody who wants to get in touch with you or follow along with the work that you're doing, I'll have you add your preferred contact information to the show notes. Also,   for anybody who's interested, I believe that I'll be having a giveaway for a couple copies of your book from Manning, and there'll be a discount code as well. So I'll put that all in the show notes for details with anybody who's interested. Bravo. And with that, I'll move us into the picks. And this week, I'm going to choose the program Inkscape.  

It's a   SVG editor.   It's open source, you know, easily installed on Linux, but it's also multiplatform.   And I've been using it for doing all the design work that I do for the podcasts. So it's pretty easy to get up and running with, been very useful for my own purposes. And so for anybody who's working with scalable vector graphics, definitely recommend that. And so with that, I'll pass it to you, Naomi.   Do you have any picks this week? Yes. Well, I mean, my pick  

[00:37:03] Unknown:

is,   what I've found 1 of the more entertaining entertainment   things this year,   which is,   on Netflix,   a series La Casa de las Flores or House of Flowers. It's a send up of Mexican telenovelas,   which are kind of like soap operas only more so. So   as, as those things tend to be, this is, this is just great fun. The more ridiculous   and and over the top it is, the more serious they play it, which is exactly what you need to do in a send up. So,   and it's it comes with, you know, an English version and a subtitle version and a Spanish version. So it's it's pretty accessible, but I found that to be very entertaining.  

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Alright. Well, thank you very much for taking the time today to share your experience as working with Python and its community   and the efforts that you've gone through to, help provide educational materials to us. So thank you for that, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Okay. Well, thank you. You too.