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[00:00:13] Unknown:

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Your host as usual is Tobias Macy. And today, I'm interviewing Neil Thompson about the value of public speaking skills as an engineer and how to gain them. So Neil, can you start by introducing yourself? As you mentioned, my name is Neil Thompson.  

[00:01:41] Unknown:

And for a number of years, I worked in the medical device industry   as a product development engineer.   And I became an engineer actually by, I would like to say by happenstance, but not really. A lot of people have a really interesting engineering story and I used to lie about mine, but as I've gotten older, I've just figured the truth will set you free. You know, oftentimes people talk about   working with   Legos when they were a kid or, you know, playing with Legos and that got them into engineering or maybe they were in robotics club when they were in high school. I didn't do any of those things. I didn't play with legos. I wasn't in robotics club. My math and science grades were, you know, average at best. I went into engineering because my father said I should. Back in those days, you know, at 17, 18 years old, I didn't really know what I wanted to do after high school. And so when he said go into engineering, I just said okay. And   and so   and have all the degrees to go into. I probably want the more difficult ones, Well, I followed his direction. I went to engineering. I eventually ended up in medical devices,   working in spinal implants specifically.  

When it comes   to what I do now, that actually started working as an engineer as well. I work at this company   and I thought I took a job as a product development engineer, at least that's what they said it was during the interview, and so while I'm going in there I'm thinking I'll be designing spinal implants,   doing that at my laptop, maybe doing some testing in the lab every now and then. It sounded like a good deal.   A few months into the job they told me I'm going to be a project lead And for those of you that don't know what that means, essentially it's a poor man's project manager.   I had to give presentations   in front of senior management every month on project progress,   and I was terrible at those presentations at first. And I noticed a lot of the other engineers, they weren't all that much better at it than I was, but I wanted to get better at it because I knew I had to give you presentations every month. I didn't wanna look like a doofus every time I did so. Looking back on it, my problem,   I noticed a lot of the other engineers' problems, is that we have all this technical expertise, but when you're talking to a group of people who aren't necessarily from that same field, they may not get what you're saying. So you have to put that technical expertise in such a way that they understand.  

Well, that's something I didn't understand at first, but I I certainly got the point at some point. So, essentially, I I got a lot better at presenting in front of these people, and I took everything that I learned, and I turned it into an online course geared towards engineers   called teach the geeks to speak.  

[00:04:06] Unknown:

And so that brings us to the topic today as far as public speaking. But going a bit more into your story of engineering, you mentioned that you did it because your father told you to, which is, you know, an admirable thing to do listening to your parents. As a father, I wish my kids were so compliant.   But I'm curious what your experience was as you get into school as far as selecting   which branch of engineering interested you because there are a lot of different directions that you can go with that, whether it's civil engineering, environmental engineering, or computer engineering. It sounds like you got more into sort of mechanical or electrical engineering.  

[00:04:40] Unknown:

Yeah. So, actually, the engineering that I ended up picking, I didn't even pick that.   Well, I my whole my whole story is just things being picked for me. So so the school that I went to was my the the local school. It was the school closest to where I lived at the time. That's why I wanted to go there. I could live at home and save money on room and board,   but I didn't get into the program that I applied to at that school. And so they said that you have these other choices. You could pick this 1 or that 1. I think my choices were materials   or geotechnical.  



[00:05:12] Unknown:

And when I hear geotechnical, I think mining. And when I think mining, I think having to go up north somewhere. When I think having to go up north somewhere, I think snow. And I don't like snow. So I the choice was obvious. Materials engineering, it is. Yeah. Materials engineering is definitely an interesting space, particularly with some of the developments that are going on now. But going back to public speaking, you mentioned that you just kind of fell into it because you thought you were getting 1 job, and it turned out that you actually had to present to management and discuss sort of the progress that was being made on the product. And   before we get too much more into that, I'm wondering if you can just discuss a bit about the different types of public speaking and some of the ways that that takes shape and some of the different venues that that public speaking might take place. So a lot of engineers might think about presenting at a conference. But as you were saying, you were speaking to management, so there are a lot of different forms that this can take. And I'm wondering if you can just kind of give a bit of an overview of your experience in this space and some of the ways that  

[00:06:09] Unknown:

the venue changes the style of speaking and how you need to think about it. When it comes to addressing people, you gotta know who you're addressing, and that's going to inform, you know, how you speak to them. So typically when you go to these technical conferences, perhaps you can use all that technical jargon that you know of, and the people in the audience is gonna understand. But if you're presenting in front of senior management, CEO, CFO,   COO,   they may not know all this technical jargon. So you're going to have to use analogies as a good example of the technical jargon that you know of to get them to understand what you're talking about. When it comes to just an engineer in general, in addition to, you know, presenting in front of management   or presenting at a conference, there's all kinds of opportunities   at a company to present. I mean, at a team meeting, I'm a project lead. I have to talk to the other members of the team. So that was another instance of public speaking. Talking even to your boss. Even you know at the end of your review. I mean you have to talk to your boss to try to convince them I need more money.  

Give me the raise, give me the promotion. So you have to be an advocate for yourself even before you get the job. At the interview, you have to talk about yourself in such a way that they are comfortable, you know, hiring you for that particular job. There's all kinds of areas or instances in which engineers need to speak. And I think when it comes to that, we don't give enough thought to it, especially when we're in school. We're all interested   and concerned with with graduating because the courses are so difficult. But then when you get out into the real world and you have to work with other people, aren't necessarily engineers, well, you're gonna have to communicate with them differently than you would the other engineers or with your boss or with the public. All the different types of audiences   that an engineer might come across throughout their careers, you have to talk to them differently based on their on their level of expertise.  



[00:07:50] Unknown:

Your point too about the interview and the performance review are specifically very important because every engineer is gonna have to go through that at some point regardless of if they select into it or not. Whereas with a conference presentation, that's something where you decide if you're going to do it. But if you wanna have a career, you have to be able to interact with people in some fashion and be able to demonstrate the value that you're able to provide   and clearly communicate what you're working on and how and why even just within a team, even if you're just working in open source, you know, speaking   takes place largely in text, but you still have to be able to clearly enumerate your ideas and represent them so that other people can be convinced and, you know, maintain a useful dialogue.  



[00:08:31] Unknown:

Yeah. You're absolutely right. You don't wanna be 1 of those engineers   that's stewing in their cubicle because you didn't get the promotion. You didn't get the raise because you weren't able to advocate for yourself, and God knows there's enough of them out there. In terms of your experience getting into public speaking and kind of being thrown in the deep end of having to present to upper management, what were some of the  

[00:08:53] Unknown:

methods and resources that you used in your own life to be able to improve your public speaking skills and be able to be successful in that career?  

[00:09:01] Unknown:

Well, firstly, it was being open to feedback.   Sometimes that's difficult for some people, especially if it's overly critical,   But you don't get better at anything unless you get some sort of feedback. Obviously,   you can look within yourself and think of the things that you need to improve on, but getting feedback from others is really important too. Although when I do say getting feedback from others, you don't necessarily need to implement everything   that you hear. 1 thing that I actually did to get better at public speaking was become a member of Toastmasters.   And for those of you all that don't know, it's an international organization   whose goal is essentially to help people improve their public speaking skills.  

And 1 part of a Toastmasters meeting is the speech part where you prepared speech. You can actually prepare a speech, give it in front of people, and then get evaluated on your speech. In many instances, actually, when I was a member of Toastmasters,   you may get an evaluation from 1 person that's diametrically opposite to the next person. So 1 person might say, I really liked your eye contact. Next person would say, you need to improve your eye contacts. Well, obviously,   only 1 of them could be right. So you have to be a bit more, I guess, discerning when you receive this feedback and determine which 1 of these people do you actually agree with and which feedback that you're going to implement.  

[00:10:15] Unknown:

As you said, you know, eye contact,   that's something worth calling out because it could be you're making eye contact with 1 person in the audience, but not the other. And having done some conference presentations myself, that's all very difficult when you have an entire auditorium full of people and you're trying to make eye contact with everybody. So you end up just kinda waving your head all around.  

[00:10:34] Unknown:

We're like a bobblehead.  

[00:10:35] Unknown:

Exactly.   And   it's not just the speech. It's also, you know, the physical presentation of your body. It's the supporting materials that you have. And I'm wondering if you can just dig a bit into some of the different elements that factor into your public speaking and how it's received and how you're able to   measure success of the presentation that you're giving?  

[00:10:56] Unknown:

Absolutely. So first thing, you gotta know your audience. If you're presenting to people that aren't as technical, you gotta dial down the technical jargon. If it's technical, then you can up that technical jargon. Another thing I'm really big on is timing, especially at these conferences   where you're given a certain amount of time to present, stick to the time. And you do that by practicing your presentation beforehand to make sure that you're under time. So let's say you're given 15 minutes, finish in 14. So you have that 1 minute buffer and practice beforehand   to practice to get to 14 minutes. No one's ever complained about a presentation being too short. But so often at these conferences, people go over time, which throws off the agenda. And then when that happens I don't get to lunch on time which is upsetting to me. So that's another thing. When it comes to presentations   I'm also big on slides.  

When it comes to slides, you don't want to have too much information, too much text on a slide. People will just end up reading the slides as opposed to listening to you And then at that point, it becomes public reading, not public speaking.   Ultimately, you're up there to deliver a message and hope that people listen to the message. So you wanna make sure that the text is limited. Actually, I'm a big fan of pictures. Pictures, they say a 1, 000 words and people like looking at them too. Another thing that's really important when it comes to speaking, and this might seem counterintuitive when it comes to technical presentations,   is telling stories. You know, when you're a kid, but perhaps your mom and your dad read you a bedtime story and you loved it. It's not as if as you got older, you stopped liking stories, but especially when it comes to technical presentations, we seem to get away from them. But if you're able to deliver your information couched in a story, people are way more likely to listen to what you have to say, especially the non technical audiences.  



[00:12:37] Unknown:

And another interesting thing digging into, for instance, the eye contact that you mentioned, there are a number of subtle ways that we can make mistakes in terms of how we're presenting ourselves in our material where, you know, maybe you focus too much of your attention on the screen because you're trying to read your own slides or   you   misread the audience and you don't necessarily   speak to their level or speak to their   dialect where, you know, as you were saying, if you have a technical audience, you use technical jargon. If you have a business audience, you maybe dial back on that. But what are some common mistakes that you've seen people make when they try to get into public speaking or when they're   interacting with their bosses or their peers? And what are some of the ways to be able to identify those mistakes in the moment and correct for them without having to wait for the end of the presentation to realize that you were completely flopping and whereas you could have maybe saved the presentation partway through by realizing the mistakes that you're making?  



[00:13:36] Unknown:

It's very difficult to do, but I would always say you need to practice beforehand, but that's the the number 1 case. But in the event that you're doing the presentation and things aren't going so well, remember to breathe. Don't do do any kind of shallow breathing. You need to be breathing pretty deeply to get yourself less nervous because obviously when things aren't going so well, the levels of your stress hormones go up. You don't want to let the people in the audience see you all stressed out on stage or in front of the podium. That's really important.   Eye contact is something I've always struggled with actually. When I look in people's eyes, I tend to forget what I was going to say. And obviously, when people are listening to you, they wanna know what you have to say, not necessarily whether you're looking into their eyes or not. Now I don't recommend people look at their shoes.  

What really helps me actually is instead of looking in their eyes look at their eyebrows.   I find that really helpful and especially when the audiences, they can't tell whether you're looking at their eyes or their eyebrows anyway.  

[00:14:32] Unknown:

In your experience of trying to   improve your skills, what are some of the mistakes or dead ends that you ended up encountering and how did you identify and correct for  

[00:14:43] Unknown:

them? Well, the eye contact was 1 of them and that's feedback that I got. I realized it was an issue for me. The eyebrow thing was actually my idea. I never read that anywhere and it's been really helpful. I highly recommend it. And then also having the slides and reading off the slides was a   was a big mistake when I first started. When I, especially with those presentations I gave in front of management, I would just get up there, read the slides. I wouldn't even look at anybody. I was looking at the screen, read them, get out of there as quickly as I could. But I realized what was happening is at the end of the presentation,   I was getting questions I thought I had answered during the presentation, but because I didn't present the information in a way that the people understood,   essentially wasted my time and and wasted their time in in having to answer these questions. So again, I mentioned before, knowing your audience is really important, As I mentioned also the slides, you don't want to read slides. You want to actually engage with people and that's why practicing is so important so that you get your points down pat so that by the time you get in front of people, there's no need to read slides. I also said to minimize text. So there's very little text on the slide. There's not a whole lot to read. So it really forces you to know your material well. 1 issue that I've run into before when trying to give presentations  

[00:15:53] Unknown:

is figuring out the proper ordering   of how to present the information because with some subject material, like, there are a number of different ways that you can get into it and trying to figure out what is the actual beginning of this is sometimes challenging.   And for those situations,   what are some of the strategies that you've fallen back on to be able to   identify an effective sequencing and be able to figure out if the way that you're presenting the material   is potentially confusing to the audience?  

[00:16:22] Unknown:

When it comes to presentations, I'm a big fan of starting with the end in mind. So you really need to think about what you want the audience to get out of your presentation   and then work backwards from that. And when you do that, then it's important to think about what makes sense to present 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and so forth. You know, I mentioned earlier about the importance of telling stories and the reason people like stories is because they have a clear beginning, middle and end and because of that it forces you to put things in a logical order. And by doing that, it's a lot easier for people to follow. The flow is better, and I'm a big fan of that. For cases where  

[00:16:59] Unknown:

you might need   to to speak ad hoc where you don't have the chance to prepare or you're not aware that there's going to be an opportunity or a need for   putting together a presentation,   what are some   useful ways that you have found to be able to   organize your thoughts in the moment and be able to communicate   effectively with people where maybe you're walking down the hallway and your boss stops you to ask a few questions and give sort of an impromptu, not necessarily speech, but an impromptu   presentation or an impromptu status update to maybe the boss or if he has his boss along with you being able to impress those higher ups.  

[00:17:36] Unknown:

1 thing you gotta make sure you do is not panic when you get those type of requests to speak impromptu.   Remember at 1 point you weren't an expert in what you are now an expert in. Be mindful of the fact that you might be speaking to somebody who's also not an expert in what you're saying, keeping that in mind. And then also thinking about what does this person really mean by what they're saying. So listening very carefully   to the question that they ask and answering it   carefully as well. Don't add additional information   that they didn't ask for. I think a lot of times we're not the best of listeners And so we get a question   and we answer it in the way that we want to answer it as opposed to the way that the person listening or asking the question wants it to be answered. We need to be a bit more   mindful of the audience that we're talking to. Because I seem to be saying the same thing over and over again, but it really is important to know your audience in in any kind of interaction,   whether it's a prepared speech that you're giving at a conference or an interaction with your boss, as you mentioned, in the hallway.  



[00:18:39] Unknown:

Yeah. And particularly for those   smaller venues where it's maybe 1 or a couple of people, and you're being asked to speak to something that you are maybe an expert on or project that you've been working on. I find it's also helpful to   ask clarifying questions about what it is that they're trying to get out of your response or, you know, rephrase their question to make sure that you understand it properly   before you then start going on and on about your project update when all they really wanted to know was, you know, something that you covered in the first 30 seconds.  

[00:19:09] Unknown:

That's a very good point, Tobias.   When I gave these presentations in front of management, as I mentioned, you'd have the CEO, the CFO, CMO, and all the people with C's in their name, and And you have to figure out what information do they want when it comes to project status. Well, the CFO is likely gonna wanna know cost. Well, how much have you spent? Have you gone over the budget? That type of information.   The CEO may wanna know about scope or the strategy, you know, a more high level type of information.   Perhaps they don't want you to go into the weeds. That's more of the technical type people that you give that kind of information to. 1 thing that actually worked really well for me when I had to give these presentations,   when I had to figure out what these people want to know, was going and ask their administrative assistants.  

So I would go to their admin and say, I'm giving this presentation on project status. What kind of information do you think this person would want to know? And I go to them because typically these c type people, they're really busy, so they don't necessarily have the time to meet with you to give you the answer. Like, you go to the right hand man or right hand woman,   and they'll likely have some insight as to the information that seat level people wanna hear. In terms of  

[00:20:15] Unknown:

the specifics of teaching engineers   and technical audiences   how to present their thoughts and present their learnings to   other people. What are some of the ways that you specifically approach that group as opposed to how you might try to teach somebody in sales or marketing how to present? I would never try to teach somebody in sales and marketing how to present.  

[00:20:40] Unknown:

Well, the main reason I wouldn't is because I've never been in sales and marketing. I find it really interesting   how you have people out here that are communications   experts,   teaching people,   even though they've never been in the position of those people.   You don't go to a plumber if you have problems with your electricity in your home. That's a big reason why I focus on people in the STEM fields because I'm part of that group. I've had to give those type of presentations at the technical conference. I've had to talk about, you know, the technical aspects of a project in front of a nontechnical audience. So so I think my words, I don't wanna sound cocky, but maybe hold more weight than somebody who's never been in that position before and is kinda guessing or just assumes that the presentation style, what you talk about is gonna be the same no matter of the industry. But I firmly don't believe that. So when it comes to talking or talking about public speaking with the engineering types, it's really important to impress upon them that inundating   an audience with technical details, especially if it's a non technical audience, is a path to minimal return. You're gonna be like I was getting questions   after the presentation that you thought you had answered during the presentation, but it was shot so full of technical jargon that the audience didn't understand. So now after the presentation, you're asking all these questions. So I'm really big on  

[00:21:56] Unknown:

using analogies that the non technical audience can understand as opposed to the technical jargon that the technical professional is used to. And to your point about kind of the signaling of you know, have a similar background to you, so this is why I'm able to speak to this subject. I think it's probably part of the reason that we've seen such an increase in   the number of roles available for developer advocates in different companies because these are people who are trying to bridge the gap between   marketing and communications   and engineering   and, you know, product management because   they have that engineering background, but they're also, you know, working on creating public facing material to be able to present to other engineers. Whereas if you were trying to read that same material from a marketer, you would say, I'm not interested. I don't really believe whatever it is they're trying to say. But if it's coming from a developer, then you kind of have that immediate trust signal. And I think that's another thing that's probably worth digging into about   how to  

[00:22:55] Unknown:

present some of your ideas. You know, how do you provide some of that signaling of trust and signaling of authority to be able to speak to a given topic? I'm right with you, Tobias. If you're an engineer and you're thinking about why should I even bother getting better at communicating with people? I mean, when it comes to your own ideas, who's gonna be a better   person to describe them? Somebody you tell the ideas to or you yourself?  

[00:23:19] Unknown:

And on that note,   as you have worked in your own career and as you have helped other people gain new skills in public speaking, what are some of the nonobvious benefits that can be realized or opportunities that can be provided by investing in this area of skills  

[00:23:35] Unknown:

beyond just the obvious of being able to negotiate with your boss for a raise or communicate with the hiring manager why you might be a good fit for the team? I think the the biggest benefit is that you're better understood. You're not seen as just, you know, the geeky engineer who just sits in front of his computer and codes or designs things. You're known as somebody that that will obviously can do those things, but that can communicate those things to other people. So you just become more useful to the organization   overall. I mean, you mentioned it before   being 1 of those advocates,   having that technical background, but being able to communicate with people. So that as I mentioned you're more useful to the organization because you have both the hard skills and the soft skills. You essentially have made yourself   a person that could go into anything. You can stay in technical. You could go into business development. You can go into sales and marketing if you want. God knows why you'd want to, but you could.  

You essentially could go anywhere within the organization,   whereas other people can't. Some of them in sales and marketing can't do your job.  

[00:24:35] Unknown:

Definitely.   Yeah. Definitely useful skills to have. You know, as somebody who's been in podcasting for a number of years now, it's been pretty remarkable,   the opportunities that it has opened up. You know, I started it as a hobby just because I wanted to be able to learn more about different projects and share it with other people who have similar interests. And as a result, I've been able to meet a whole slew of people who I never would have spoken to otherwise because, you know, I have a value proposition that I can provide to them where they have a reason why they might wanna come talk to me and spend an hour of their time discussing something that they've been building because it provides some value to them. And  

[00:25:12] Unknown:

I'm glad you got into podcasting, Tobias. You definitely have a voice for it. Nice and smooth.  

[00:25:18] Unknown:

Thank you.   So in terms of your own experiences   where, you know, you've got this background by accident of public speaking   and, you know, you've been working in engineering,   and now you have a podcast where you speak to other people about some of the benefits that public speaking has provided for them.   I'm wondering what your own path into podcasting has been like and what your inspiration was   to start helping people share those stories and maybe some of the interesting or useful lessons that you've learned as a result?  

[00:25:51] Unknown:

What has been really interesting about the podcast is not necessarily the people that stayed technical. It's the people   that expanded and did other things.   I've spoken to people who might have been programmers at 1 point, and now they teach soft skills to people. I've talked to people who were technical, and now they're actually professional speakers. They don't even technical anymore. They'd go around and speak. That's their job. Can you imagine somebody who started off in an industry or in a position where public speaking wasn't necessarily the goal or wasn't necessarily part of their everyday life,   but now that's what they do as their profession. It's been really interesting   seeing the people that get these degrees in engineering and seeing what they do with them afterwards. Just because you get a degree in something doesn't mean you have to stay there, and just hearing those journeys has been really cool. Yeah. I think that's definitely 1 of the interesting things about the modern era is that 50, 60, a 100 years ago,  

[00:26:45] Unknown:

whatever job you started as you came out of your adolescence   was probably the job you're going to have for the rest of your life. And   now the job that you have, you know, immediately out of high school or immediately out of college might not even be the same career that you have 5 years down the road. You might have to retrain into a completely different industry   just because that's the speed at which we're living these days. So as you said, having that ability to present your ideas and communicate effectively is all the more important because   the ideas that you have might be completely different in terms of the subject area that you're focusing on. And so just being able to   communicate as a way that you can speak your way into a new position even if you don't necessarily have the direct experience needed, but you have the motivation and the inspiration to learn.  



[00:27:32] Unknown:

Absolutely. If we've learned anything from this pandemic,   it's that change is coming. Just ask anybody who works in the hotel or restaurant industry.  

[00:27:40] Unknown:

Yeah. It's definitely interesting   times, even just in the past year.   In terms of your podcast,   so we've touched on it a little bit, but I'm wondering if you can just give a bit more context about   what your goals are with the podcast and some of the types of material that you cover   and some of  

[00:27:58] Unknown:

the ways that you think about the audience and what you are trying to convey to them. When it comes to the podcast, I'm really big on getting people on there who perhaps at 1 point weren't all the best at public speaking, but saw the benefit of it and got better at it. And now they use it in their everyday crew you know, in their lives and in their careers. So that's the really the big takeaway I want from the people to take away from the podcast. And also, as I mentioned before, the idea that you don't necessarily have to stay in 1 spot. Just because you start 1 place doesn't mean that's where you have to stay. And so again,   showing the journeys   of these people going from 1 place to another, I think is very interesting for the audience. The motivation for the podcast really came from, as I mentioned, my struggles in public speaking. And really what I wanted to do at first was talk to people who were, you know, adept at public speaking and see, you know, how they did it. So 1 of the questions I ask a lot to the people that I speak to is if they have a process for putting their presentations together and what it is. And it's really interesting to hear people   talk about how they actually put their presentations together. And another thing, you know, people are very nervous when it comes to public speaking. It's 1 of the biggest fears out there. I think like 70% of people have a fear of public speaking. So I asked the people who are now skilled at it, how do you deal with your nerves? And they give all kinds of great tips on how to deal with nervousness or anxiousness when it comes to public speaking. So really the goal is twofold   is showing that anybody that you know comes from these STEM fields can get better at public speaking.  

Not only am I example of that but the people I bring on is an example of that. And then showing the the journeys of these people too to let others know that just because you started off as an engineer doesn't mean that's where you have to stay. Although if you do stay, that's cool too.   Hey.  

[00:29:47] Unknown:

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And you also   provide training to people directly, and I'm wondering how   the podcast and the training tie into each other and just some of the ways that you structure   the lessons and material and how you work with people to improve their public speaking abilities?  

[00:30:43] Unknown:

Well, I always mention the course during, before, and after. And so if people, you know, would like to check it out, they can always go to the website. But I like to keep the podcast really focused on the guests and asking them questions more about themselves, their journeys,   how they view public speaking, why they eventually saw it as something to get better at. As I mentioned, the process that they use to to put their presentations together, how they deal with their nerves, you know, essentially   questions that somebody,   an engineer would have if it comes to, okay, I wanna get better at public speaking. How do I do that? Well, I have now hundreds of interviews of people telling you how you can do that.  



[00:31:20] Unknown:

From doing the podcast and from your own experiences   presenting and experiencing   presentations, what are some of the most interesting or innovative or unexpected   techniques or styles or   strategies that you have seen or learned about as a result?  

[00:31:36] Unknown:

1 guest said that when he practices his speech, he stands on 1 foot. And then   and because he figures by doing that, it forces you to focus on the word because you don't you don't wanna fall over it. It's like a focusing, I guess, technique. So that's the first time I've ever anybody mentioned that, standing on 1 foot. And then I tried it, and I was like, yeah. I'm pretty focused.  

[00:31:58] Unknown:

And in your own experience   of, you know, your career and running the podcast   and building out this business of helping other people learn how to do presentations.   What are some of the most interesting or unexpected or challenging lessons that you've learned in the process?  

[00:32:13] Unknown:

Well, I hate to admit no, I don't hate to admit this. It's the truth a lot of the times. Engineers can be a pretty cocky bunch. We don't really think that we have to improve   on anything.   But, hey, once you get punched in the mouth giving 1 of them presentations and you you're sweating through your clothes, you realize maybe this is something that I need to improve on. And that certainly was the case for me when I first started giving those presentations to run a management. I was very cocky. I got up there and figured I'm the expert here. I can just read off these slides and get out of dodge, but that wasn't the case. I eventually learned and and actually what ended up happening is the project that I was brought into that company to do was canceled. And I firmly believe that perhaps if I was better at conveying the information to these decision makers, perhaps I could have saved the project. And that's really what spearheaded the beginning of Teach the Geek and my own journey in becoming more skilled at public speaking.  

[00:33:02] Unknown:

In terms of   the opportunities   that developers and engineers might have for being able to practice and improve on these skills,   what are some of the   avenues that they might be able to   foster in sort of their day to day work for being able to   identify areas of improvement   and be able to actually practice those skills without necessarily having to be in a high stress environment of conference or, you know, in a meeting with your boss?  

[00:33:30] Unknown:

It's important to look for opportunities wherever they exist.   So if you're part of a team   volunteering to give project status upstates to the teams, that's a pretty low stress   environment since it's not your boss. It's not a bunch of conference goers. So that's 1 of them. I mean, I mentioned earlier that I was a member of Toastmasters.   Toastmasters is an excellent forum to practice giving speeches   and you don't necessarily have to take all the feedback and implement the feedback that you think is useful. But in terms of getting up in front of a supportive audience that actually wants you to succeed,  

[00:34:01] Unknown:

Toastmasters can't be beat. I've heard of Toastmasters a number of times. I've never actually taken part in it. But for people who might be interested in exploring that, can you talk through sort of the overall experience and the sort of context that you're given for being able to give these presentations?  

[00:34:16] Unknown:

Absolutely.   A Toastmasters meeting is essentially   divided into 3 parts. There's the impromptu part, there's the prepared speech part, and then there's the evaluation part. So during the impromptu part, you have the choice to participate, although I highly suggest you do.   You will be given a question and then typically you'll be given a minute to answer the question and because you didn't know the question beforehand it forces you to come up with an answer on the spot So you become a lot better at answering things on the spot. I mean, we actually did mention that, you know, you mentioned earlier the conversation with a boss in the hallway. Well, the impromptu part of a Toastmaster meeting can really help you with that conversation.   And then there's the prepared speech part, and not everyone does this at every meeting. Typically, you'll have 2 or 3 prepared speeches.  

So you'll be prepared beforehand, and you'll typically will be given between 5 and 7 minutes to deliver your speech. And then after that, there's the evaluation part. Typically, you'll have 1 evaluator for 1 person who gave a prepared speech, but the other people in the club can give their 2¢ as well. But the 1 person that's evaluating it's more of a formal process. So they'll go over what they liked about your speech and what you can improve on. And what's really nice about it is for the people that provide their 2¢, typically, they're given a sheet of paper for them to write out what they liked and thought you could improve on your speech too. So you can go over it afterwards   and and see what you agree with and what you don't. So if you do get the comment, you need to improve your eye contact from 1 person, and another person says, I really liked your eye contact, that's when you get to to to see that information. We've been focusing a lot of this conversation on leveling up as somebody who's trying to give presentations.  



[00:35:55] Unknown:

But for people who might be senior engineers or have experience doing conference presentations or things like that,   what are some   useful advice that you have for them to be able to help other members of their team or other members of their community   improve their skills and provide useful feedback?  

[00:36:12] Unknown:

Well, it's really difficult to help people that don't wanna be helped. Essentially, you have to wait for the people to eventually   see the benefit of public speaking to then offer any kind of advice because   unsolicited advice sometimes doesn't really fall well. I suggest waiting for that to happen. But when it does, be try to be as generous with your with your  

[00:36:32] Unknown:

information as possible. Tell them about what's worked for you, even the things that you could improve on. As I mentioned, when it comes to public speaking, it's a journey. None of us are perfect at it. Practice makes progress. Every time you give a presentation, you're getting better at it. As you said, definitely a journey. I can my first conference presentation I gave, I, you know, was underprepared, and I had, I think, 30 or 45 minutes to present. And I was done in 20 and then spent the rest of the time just kinda staring at the audience. Said, well, I guess we're done   here. So definitely was something that I practiced the next time is figuring out the pacing and figuring out the timing and did a bit more practice. So it can   be nervous and nerve wracking and anxiety inducing at the time, but, you know, 1 of the other things that's useful to keep in mind, particularly   in conferences or, you know, if you're speaking to a peer group is that everybody in the audience wants you to succeed. They're not sitting there trying to think about what you're doing wrong or how you're going to fail. They just wanna   be able to get the information, and they want you to be successful in doing it. So that's another thing that's useful to keep in mind is that it's not an adversarial relationship between yourself and your audience. It's a collaborative and a positive relationship. So the audience is your allies, and so having that in mind can help reduce the stress level a bit and, you know, allow you to provide a more useful presentation.  



[00:37:52] Unknown:

I fully agree with you, Tobias. And in the event that they are adversarial, what? At some point, they're gonna have to give a presentation too, and then you can give them the same energy they gave you.  

[00:38:05] Unknown:

In terms of people who want to be able to improve their public speaking,   what are some of the resources that you recommend, particularly that might be focused on engineers   to be able to improve their speaking and presenting skills?  

[00:38:19] Unknown:

Well, I certainly would save my course, which would be helpful. 1 of the reasons I really like the course that I built is that it's not long. You should be able to go through the entire course and just go through the material in about an hour and a half. And I made it that way because I know that engineers are busy. You know, they have a lot to do, so I didn't wanna make it too long that people wouldn't finish it. So that's 1 resource. And then another 1, as I mentioned it, is Toastmasters.   Toastmasters, as I mentioned, is a really great forum to practice your public speaking. You may not agree with the evaluators or the other people in the group, but at least you get the opportunity to get up in front of people and test things out, see what works. Especially if that's an engineer, you're likely gonna be talking to a group that aren't engineers. So you get the opportunity   to see what works with them, how can you engage them, especially if you're giving a presentation   on a technical topic, which I highly advise you to do. If you want to get better at the speeches that or the presentations that you have to give at your job, practice them in front of a Toastmasters group and they'll give you some great feedback, like I mentioned, because they are not a technical audience.  



[00:39:22] Unknown:

Yeah. Being able to, as you said,   convey information to a nontechnical audience about a technical subject is a valuable skill, especially if you want to ever end up in, you know, CEO position if you're, you know, founding a company or you wanna be able to get into management because then you're going to be interfacing a lot more with people who don't have the same technical background, and that can be invaluable in terms of unlocking potential in your career.   Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. Are there any other aspects of public speaking   and the skills needed to be able to be effective at it as engineers   or your own work on the podcast or or your courses that we didn't discuss yet that you'd like to cover before we close out the show? Well, 1 of the things that I would mention is  

[00:40:03] Unknown:

to get better at something, you have to realize that it's something to get better at. So you would need to know that they're about the benefits, and I think we covered a lot of them in this interview. The the ability to communicate in front of people can be the difference between a project getting approved or being canceled. As in my case, it could be the difference between getting that raise and then promotion. Just being able to communicate in front of people, specifically decision makers, is so key to just moving up in an organization and just being happy in your career. I mentioned this earlier, and I think it should be mentioned again. You don't want to be that engineer sitting in their cubicle stewing because some other engineer who is better at presenting in front of people, who's better at networking, who's better at all the soft skills that truly are important, got that promotion. And you didn't, I mean, you didn't do the work, so you can't really be all that upset that you didn't get the result. Yeah. Exactly. It's not just about the technical prowess. It's also about being able to make it understood as to why it's useful.  

[00:40:57] Unknown:

Absolutely.   Well, for anybody who wants to follow along with the work that you're doing or get in touch, I'll have you add your preferred contact information to the show notes. And with that, I'll move us into the picks.   And this week, I'm going to choose the show Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I watched the first few episodes of that, so I'm pretty excited for the next 1 to come out. Been enjoying the miniseries   that Marvel has been releasing recently to augment the rest of the cinematic universe, and it's interesting to see how they tie everything together. So definitely worth giving a look if you're looking for something to watch. And so with that, I'll pass it to you, Neil. Do you have any picks this week? Of course. I'm gonna pitch my product.  

[00:41:33] Unknown:

Why the hell would I miss anything else? So yeah. So teach the geek, you know, teach the geek dot com. If you wanna check out the YouTube channel, it's youtube.teachthegeek.com.   I talk to engineers   about their journeys in public speaking and the benefit in becoming better as a public speaker, 30 minutes or less too. So it's now a long time commitment.  

[00:41:51] Unknown:

Alright. Well, thank you very much for taking the time today to join me and share your experience of public speaking and helping other people realize the benefits of that. And, you know, it's definitely very worthwhile skill to have. So I appreciate all the time and effort you've put into helping other people realize the benefits of that, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Great. Thanks for having me, Tobias.   Thank you for listening. Don't forget to check out our other show, the Data Engineering Podcast at data engineering podcast dotcom for the latest on modern data management.   And visit the site of pythonpodcast.com   to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.  

And if you've learned something or tried out a project from the show, then tell us about it. Email host@podcastinit.com   with your story.   To help other people find the show, please leave a review on Itunes and tell your friends and coworkers.