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[00:00:13] Unknown:

Hello, and welcome to podcast.init,   the podcast about Python and the people who make it great.   When you're ready to launch your next app or you want to try a project you hear about on the show, you'll need somewhere to deploy it. So take a look at our friends over at Linode. With 200 gigabit private networking,   scalable shared block storage, node balancers, and a 40 gigabit public network, all controlled by a brand new API, you've got everything you need to scale up.   And for your tasks that need fast computation, such as training machine learning models or running your CI pipelines, they just launched dedicated CPU instances.   In addition to that, they just launched a new data center in Toronto, and they've got 1 opening in Mumbai at the end of 2019.  

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And you can visit the site at python podcast.com   to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, read the show notes, and get in touch. And if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, I'd love to hear them.   And to help other people find the show, please leave a review on Itunes and tell your friends and coworkers. The host as usual is Tobias Macy. And today, I'm interviewing Eva Jadlowska about the Python Software Foundation and the role that it serves in the language and the community.  

[00:03:48] Unknown:

So, Eva, could you start by introducing yourself? Sure. So my name is Eva, and I work with the Python Software Foundation.  

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Just earlier this year, I became the executive director. And do you remember how you first got introduced to Python?  

[00:04:01] Unknown:

Sure. So I was actually introduced to the community first.   My CS degree back in the day did not cover Python at all.   In 2008, I was working for a company in Chicago that provided services for conferences.   And back then, I set up conference website registration   for registrations and also the databases behind them, using informix 4 GL and PHP. And I also did meeting planning for certain clients.   Our sysadmin,   back in the day was friends with Carl Carson, who at the time was a volunteer for PyCon,   which was happening,   luckily in Chicago. Well, near Chicago in Rosemont,   at the time. And it just so happened at that time that the PSF was looking for professional services to help run   PyCon. And since Carl knew the company I was working for, he suggested it, and we were hired to help with the meeting planning.  

So PyCon 2018 was my first exposure to this wonderful community.  

[00:04:56] Unknown:

And so through that, you've ended up getting involved with the Python Software Foundation itself. And as you said, you've just become the executive director. But before we get into that story, I'm wondering if you can share a bit of the history of the PSF   and how it got started and just explain a bit about what it is for anybody who isn't familiar with it. Sure. So starting with what the PSF is. So so the Python Software Foundation is,  

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in easiest terms to say the nonprofit behind Python and its community.   To elaborate a little bit more, the PSF works on on several ways to support our community.   And that includes producing Python US, which is the largest Python conference in the world,   upholding the Python trademark   as long as well as other trademarks, and that includes Python,   PyLadies,   most recently.   PyPI was also added to the list. Additionally, we run important infrastructure   that our core devs,   use in our community uses, and we provide financial support to our global community. The history of the PSF   is quite elaborate, and I feel like   it's it's not as fun talking about the history   of the PSF   until you start comparing to what it is today.  

Because that part is is really interesting. So the PSF was started in 2, 001,   and it had a handful of board directors at that time. I think when the first meeting minutes had 2 directors listed, and they were all male and they were all from the US. And they had 16 founding members, which were all male as well. And today, we have 13 board directors.   And we have directors in Australia, Zimbabwe,   India, Europe, and US at that point.   Our goal is is to have a very diverse board. So many different parts of the world are represented in our discussions and decisions. Throughout the years, the PSF continued to grow to what it is today, and several upgrades, what I like to call, were were made along the way. For example, our membership. So up to 2017,   folks could only become members of the PSF through nominations   by other members,   which was sort of restrictive.  

Currently, we have   over 10, 000 basic members,   a 150   supporting members,   300 fellows,   and approximately   550 contributing and managing members, which is a huge increase to what it was,   back in the day. Even when I started in 2011 as a full time employee,   we only had about 250 members at that time.   And with our mission in mind,   the the board decided to update our bylaws in 2017   and open up membership,   to a much wider audience and have a true representation of what our community looks like today.   Additionally, the PSF has grown into an organization that helps fund global Python communities. So when I joined in 2011,   back back then, the PSF supported communities   maybe in 5 countries.  

And to give you an idea of how much our grants program has has grown since then,   the PSF   last year in 2018   supported events in 51 countries,   which is a huge growth.   And historically, you know, the PSF didn't really have an operations team. The board   did all of the work and was supported by by the volunteers.   So they didn't really have a paid staff and now we have 7 people on the team. So it's really exciting. Yeah. And I know that for at least a number of years, you were the only person who was actually  

[00:08:23] Unknown:

full time at the PSF and that everyone else was working on a volunteer basis.   And so it's definitely great to see that the PSF has grown enough to the point where it's actually able to support more people,   on a full time basis. And,   as you mentioned, you've increased the number of services that you're providing to the community, which I'm sure has added some complexity in terms of the finances and just the organizational aspects.  

[00:08:49] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. So when I first started, I was the first full time employee, and we did have Kurt Kaiser who did work part time on our accounting. But as you can imagine, you know, sending funds to 51 different countries in the world, that requires a lot of time and a lot of knowledge.   So we had to recently grow grow our team extensively, actually. So going from helping with run PyCon 2008  

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to being  

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the 1st full time employee at the Python Software Foundation, I'm wondering if you can share the story of how you got from point a to point b. Sure. So in 2011, I decided to leave Chicago to study in Denmark for a bit, which also meant that I had to leave my full time job where I was helping serve PyCon as a client. A director approached me while I was at, PyCon Atlanta and asked if I wanted to help with PyCon remotely.   So that led me to to be a contractor for the PSF solely for for Python, which I believe is a 15 hour commitment weekly.   And in the summer of 2012, I was offered a full time position to not just help with Python, but also to help with PSF administrative work as the secretary of the nonprofit.  

And that eventually led to me being the director of operations, especially as our as our staff grew.   1 of the main things I do is is manage all the staff. And then 8 years later, here I am the executive director.  

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And 1 thing that is sometimes unclear for people who don't spend as much time looking at the PSF and what they do is the relationship   between the organization and the nonprofit of the Python Software Foundation and how it relates to the core developers of the language  

[00:10:30] Unknown:

and just the overall relationship that exists between them? Sure. So, I mean, historically, I think when the PSF was first started,   it was   way more in touch with the core developers than it was most recently,   simply because a lot of the PSF   directors were also core developers.   Over time that kind of switched to more community members being the directors, and now we're kind of bounce bouncing between the 2. But it our relationship, I feel like, is a work in progress. And a couple of years ago, you know, I'll be honest, I I think it was pretty non existent.   Nowadays, we provide   a lot more support and and have a strong relationship.  

We provide infrastructure   support and organizational support. We help, ensure that the core devs have access to the infrastructure setup that makes their life easier.   And we also help organize and fund the core dev sprint that happens in September.   And, additionally, I am collaborating with the steering council to see what other ways PSF can support the core developers, at least financially.   That that is definitely my top priority this year, and I truly hope that we can grow a strong and flourishing relationship between, you know, the core devs and the PSF. And 1 of the components of the mission statement for the Python Software Foundation  

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and also something that has been reflected in Python is a strong focus on diversity,   both in terms of supporting existing diversity and trying to increase the reach of the community and the participants of the language and,   conference attendance. And so   both both attendance and presentation,   and I'm wondering how that reflects too in your,   in the services that you provide to core developers and how that helps to facilitate bringing in a broader and more diverse group of people who are contributing to the language  

[00:12:17] Unknown:

itself? Sure. So I I do think that supporting, for example, the core dev sprint,   not just the 1 in September, but also the 1 that happens at PyCon US is an important aspect of helping increase diversity   because we help   fund   certain,   folks that need it,   to get to the core dev sprint. Right? So not just to get there, but also their hotel stay. And we try to arrange sponsorship,   with a company that, you know, provides the food and beverage during that week and all types of of things like that. So for 2019, we're actually pretty lucky because Pilendinium, which is a conference that happens in London,   it's actually probably happening next week if I remember correctly. And so they're actually donating all their   proceeds, all their revenue from that conference to help fund the core dev sprint this year. So the more funding that we have to provide us financial assistance   to core developers and even the mentorees   that are close to becoming core developers, I feel like, we have   a stronger   chance of increasing our diversity.  



[00:13:15] Unknown:

And then going back to the membership numbers that you were quoting, it's definitely impressive to see the growth in involvement   of people who are part of the community helping to engage with the Python Software Foundation.   So I'm wondering, I guess, what are the main motivations for somebody to want to become a member   and what the differences are between the different membership tiers? Sure. So  

[00:13:39] Unknown:

I think, honestly, the main reason is to give back to the community. A few months back, I asked the community on Twitter to tell me why they donated to the PSF.   And the top answer was Python gave them something, whether it was a friendship, a mentor,   a job, a hobby,   and they wanted a way to give back to the community.   So, you know, having having that kind of setup where people can donate, become a member is important to them. I mean, the benefit of of growing our membership is to have it be known that all of these people believe in what our community does and what the PSF does. That we're we're headed in the right direction. And to kind of reflect that, we have a variety of,   sponsorship levels at this point. So back in the day, we just had 1 form of of, membership, and it was just the nominated nominated   way of becoming a member. And now we have the basic level of membership,   which is free to everyone. It just requires anyone to go to python.org and sign up for a basic membership. And, you know, it doesn't really come with any kind of benefits, but it helps underline   the growth and importance of our community in my opinion.  

Especially as the PSF continues to grow, Something in our near future is probably gonna be, requesting grants from other organizations   or or even,   government entities. And, you know, having those kinds   of stats behind our application,   makes it more   more relevant and important to what we're trying to do and achieve. There's also   the supporting membership, which is $99   a year. So so sometimes I I explain it to people as well. If you don't have the time to commit to the PSF, the next best thing you could do is   contribute financially.  

So for those that can, if you donate $99   a year,   that adds up. I mean, $99 a year helps us fund   a year's worth of meet up fees for for groups. So it is substantial and helps someone. And then the next 2 levels are contributing and managing. So those are those are membership levels that people can self certify for. All we do is we ask you to tell us how   you contribute   or manage anything,   in the Python ecosystem.   And we ask that it's, like, at least a 5 hour,   a week commitment. So people do that, and we have over 500 of those members, and those so the supporting and the managing contributing members, they're able to vote,   in the PSF elections.  

And then the last 1 is the fellow,   membership level, and that is   what   the previous nominated members were translated to in our new membership setup. So the fellows   are still   done through a nomination process, but now we have a fellow work group where anyone, doesn't have to be a fellow, can nominate someone to the fellow work group. And then the fellow work group who are only fellows   review the nominations, and then quarterly, we vote in new fellows. And that is also   a membership level that comes with voting with voting rights.  

[00:16:45] Unknown:

Yeah. And for anybody who isn't familiar with the voting process,   it's something that happens on,   I don't know what the intervals are. But for being able to vote in the new board members, which I know you recently changed   the format of how those elections happen, where now there is sort of a staggered election cycle where rather than having the entire cohort voted in at the beginning of each term, you now   have some means of maintaining institutional knowledge among the board members where certain   board members will, come up for reelection at different periods than the others so that it help can help provide some sort of continuity   in the,   guidance of the people who are working in that capacity.  



[00:17:27] Unknown:

Exactly. And in addition to voting in new members,   anytime there are substantial bylaw changes,   that would also require membership membership voting. So for example, when we opened up our membership   to include all these great levels,   that was done through a through a membership vote. For a bit of speculation,  

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I'm wondering   what you think the overall sort of reach and current state of the Python language and ecosystem would be if we didn't have the Python Software Foundation   there as a means of helping with the legal and financial aspects of the language and community growth and also to just serve as sort of an anchor point for the overall ecosystem.  

[00:18:08] Unknown:

Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, it's hard it's hard to say what what could be, but,   I mean, just looking at our grants program, which I feel has international   reach,   just the fact that we have gone from supporting 5 countries to 51 countries kind of speaks for itself. And there are also a number of other organizations within the Python ecosystem such as NumFocus  

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most notably, but also the,   data carpentry and software carpentry or groups. And I'm wondering what the relationship is between the PSF and some of those other organizations that help to try and grow and shepherd different,   sub portions of the Python ecosystem?  

[00:18:49] Unknown:

Right now, I can't really say that there are strong relationships between the organizations. I mean, there definitely   are relationships and we communicate with 1 another, but that's   that's on my list of of what I'm gonna be doing as an executive director is kind of helping establish and create stronger relationships and partnerships with these organizations.  

[00:19:07] Unknown:

And so in terms of the overall challenges that are faced by you and the PSF,   I'm wondering   both currently and in the recent past, I'm wondering which are the ones that are most notable to   you and,   that you think are   most interesting to people who are looking in from the outside.  

[00:19:28] Unknown:

So currently,   we experience a lot of growing pains, and I think that is true for the recent past as well.   You know, in short, we we want to increase the programs we provide, but in order to do that, we need more funding.   We want to ensure that the PSF is sustainable   for the long run at the same time, which means that we need to have a financial reserve,   and and also have more than 1 staff person being able to write a check, for example, which was something that we struggled with for a long time.   If if our accounting person went on vacation, everything kind of,   stood still for a bit. So those are just   just some things that we've been working through. And I think,   you know, the bus factor of 1 has has definitely improved at the PSF. But there are other growing pains that we're still dealing dealing with. And a lot of that,   is around with   around the concept of wanting to do more, but being limited in the amount of resources that we have. And if you  

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had just a a sudden influx of more resources, whether it's time or,   people to help out or financial. I'm wondering what are some of the sort   of forefront projects that you would most like to tackle. Sure. So we actually have  

[00:20:45] Unknown:

a few coming up. So   this year, 1 of the things that I mentioned is is I really want to improve the way that the PSF,   helps support core development.   So that's, you know, that's that's gonna that's definitely going to take,   additional finances to do. Last week, Thursday, I presented the PSF's annual impact report to the Chicago Python user group, known as Chippy. And I explained through my presentation that, you know, with the growth that we're having and with the things that we want to do, we're gonna increase expenses for the PSF. And I compared to what we spent in 2018 to what PSF will most likely spend in in 2019.   And we may spend,   you know, $650, 000   more this year than last. And, you know, those are just helping in, in 2 aspects. So in addition to the core development   support, we also want to   increase support that we provide for,   Python in education.  

We currently well, earlier this year, we started,   Python in Education Board Committee that went through   a process of request for ideas. And from there, we did a request for proposals. And we selected 4 proposals that we want to   well, we just last week recommended to the board for funding.   And a mixture of those 4 proposals and being able to provide,   some core development support through project management.   That's it's gonna be a large chunk of money that we're gonna be spending this year. Yeah. And the fact that you provide grants for these educational  

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community with welcoming sort of new and upcoming entrance to the programming ecosystem.   So,   I know for instance, I'm working with my kids on teaching them Python and considering   sort of reaching out to try and bring in more people from my local community to teach other kids Python. And so   having the PSF as a potential resource, even if it's just for making connections to other people who have useful materials, is definitely great to have   just in terms of the language community itself and which doesn't necessarily exist in a lot of other   language ecosystems.  



[00:22:58] Unknown:

Exactly. And having those resources   be current   and maintained by the organization is important.   I mean, right now,   the Python education page that we have listed on python.org, I have to say, is somewhat outdated.   But 1 of the grants,   that we're we're hoping to fund   will actually help us,   for about 6 months work on consolidating   resources from all over. Making sure that, you know, they're touching   base on on all levels of education, as well as, you know, making sure that it's applicable   to to countries all around the world. So that those are things that we have   have in mind and and we hope to to be able to continue to find improvement in that section.  



[00:23:41] Unknown:

And in terms of things that keep you up at night that you're most worried about as far as the future stability and viability   of the Python Software Foundation   and the Python language? I'm wondering what comes top of mind to you.  

[00:23:57] Unknown:

I mean, what I'm probably most worried about is probably what every nonprofit is worried about, and that's funding.   As I mentioned, the list of ways we can support the community continues to grow. However,   our income revenue   is not increasing at the same rate as the length of that list. You know, that's right. Donating and sponsoring the PSF. And so is so important. We currently have a fundraiser happening through the end of June,   which was initially started   in may when we were doing Python and our goal was to reach   $60, 000 in that fundraiser. After May, we noticed we haven't reached our goal, so we extended it another month. You know? And when you look at 6 the the total amount of money that we plan to   to spend more this year than last year, $60, 000 is just a small fraction of it. But, you know, we're having trouble in reaching that that goal. So that worries me,   which which is important for those listening. If you're able to donate, please do. It helps us   better serve the community. Right now, if you go to python.org,   there's donate buttons all over. So if you click on any of those, that will help us tremendously.  



[00:25:02] Unknown:

And are there any aspects of the way that the PSF   is organized in terms of being a 501c3   that limit your ability to accept larger contributions that would potentially help accelerate the capabilities of the PSF?  

[00:25:18] Unknown:

No. I I don't think there are   any that at least not that come come to mind at this time. Our financial controller might have something else to say on that topic. But the only thing that the kind of restriction that comes to mind that if someone donates for general fund, we can use it,   in ways that we think is best, if you give us a directed donation.   For example, if you sponsor PyLadies through our PyLadies,   donation page, then that can only go to PyLadies,   things. So directed directed funding   can only be used on, you know, what it's being donated for. So that's the only restriction that we currently have. So in terms  

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of upcoming challenges that you're anticipating as far as current programs that the PSF provides or new programs or services or outreach efforts that you're looking to start up in the coming years. So I'm wondering   what you are,   sort of keeping an eye on in different ways that the community at large can help out. I mean, receiving feedback from the community is very important, And I feel like we,  

[00:26:22] Unknown:

a, we could do better   requesting feedback.   And, you know, right now we don't really receive a lot beyond   the surveys that we put out through Pygone or even our community survey that we did last year.   So, you know, making sure that what we're doing is relevant to the community is important.   So if anyone ever has any feedback, please don't hesitate to contact us, you know, as a group or even me individually  

[00:26:46] Unknown:

on Twitter. Yeah. I think that that's pretty much for the long term, it's just making sure that what we're doing is relevant to what the community needs. And as far as your overall experience of working with and for the PSF, I'm wondering what you have found to be some of the most interesting or unexpected or valuable lessons that you've learned.  

[00:27:05] Unknown:

Well,   I think the funniest 1 is that coffee at conferences cost a lot of money.   Just getting   to   well, a, I think our group drinks a lot of coffee, and b, just coffee at the convention center is not that great, but it is the most expensive coffee you will ever have.   And the other, I think, interesting and challenging lesson that I've learned over the years is that volunteer management is really hard. Yeah. I I feel like, you know, this is outside of just just for Python, but this is just in general. We can do a lot better,   with the resources that we have out there for volunteer management. I don't think there are many. And so that's an interesting thing to talk about too is just the idea of  

[00:27:49] Unknown:

organizationally,   how do you help sort of direct the   well meaning but misguided efforts that somebody might have to try and contribute to different programs that you offer or,   maybe trying to provide advice that they don't necessarily have the full context of an environment and how you manage and direct that energy in a in the most effective manner? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it takes  

[00:28:13] Unknown:

I think you have to really get to know the volunteer in order to know what their work style is,   because that helps you figure out how you can best motivate them and let them do their work. Some people would like you to be very hands on, and some people just want to take it and and do whatever it is they wanna do. So you just kind of have to get to know everyone a little bit. And as the pool of members and contributors continues to grow in terms of scale and diversity, I'm wondering how different cultural aspects  

[00:28:45] Unknown:

or language barriers and geographical aspects have played into your overall engagement with the community. Yeah.  

[00:28:53] Unknown:

Language barriers, definitely.   It definitely helps to have board members and work group members,   from all over the world because it helps us kind of gap   that bridge between, you know, miscommunications   and different cultures.   Having someone   for example, let's take our work group, for grants,   as an example here. And we look at   all the the grants that the PSF has given out in 2018.   25% of our grants go to Africa. So having   members on that grants work group be from Africa is important to help bridge the cultural difference   and also to do, like, local   local research.  

We tend to   we tend   to, trust everyone,   you know, initially.   But then having that local input kind of helps us  

[00:29:47] Unknown:

ensure that what we're doing is is the right thing and that it's not gonna be misused in any way. And outside of the PSF, I'm wondering what are some of the other ways that the community can contribute to the overall health and longevity of the language and its ecosystem and the community itself?  

[00:30:04] Unknown:

Sure. Well, I feel like it it depends who who you are in our ecosystem.   For example, if you're an employer using Python,   allow your employees to contribute to Python during work hours.   A lot of our major contributors   are able to do that, but not everyone.   So the more flexibility that employees have, I think, the the stronger   our community becomes,   financially   support the community as well.   On the other side, if if you're an employee   that works at a company that uses Python, talk to your managers about the importance of supporting open source. Many organizations use open source projects, but I feel like sometimes we need to underline the fact that   open source doesn't mean free work. It just wouldn't be sustainable that way. I think another important   important   community to be welcoming, And we want our contributors to stick around for years to come. Imagine if if all we ever had were newcomers. We wouldn't really get anywhere. I feel like, Brett Cannon gave a great keynote at PyCon 2018, which I believe he also gave at another conference a few years back, to this point, and I highly recommend that you all check it out. Yeah. I'll add a link to that in the show notes. And  

[00:31:21] Unknown:

I'm wondering too if there are any outside factors that you see as risks to the language or its ecosystem, whether as far as the popularity   of other programming languages or paradigms or just the overall landscape of computing or any sorts of,   societal   aspects that you think will pose a risk to the Python language and its ecosystem?  

[00:31:46] Unknown:

Just looking at the discussions that happen,   I feel like sometimes   people try to   make Python fit   to all the scenarios out there in the world, and and I don't think that's the best way forward.   Computers will continue to change. There will always be   a language that is similar or better than Python,   and we just have to learn to use Python   and to take advantage of Python for what it's best used for,   and not try to make it fit every  

[00:32:17] Unknown:

case that's out there. Yeah. And I definitely think that there's a lot of   sort of conflated   issues that people see with Python where they say it's not great for this particular thing,   and that's not necessarily   what it has ever been targeted at. The main strength of the language in its community is that it's great as a glue language, and it can be   very flexible to reach across domains, but it's not necessarily going to be the best vertical solution within a given domain.  

[00:32:46] Unknown:

Exactly. So I think if we concentrate on on the bright spots of Python, then   then we'll be a sustainable community for the long run. And are there any other aspects  

[00:32:56] Unknown:

of the work that the PSF does or the work that you do for the PSF that we didn't discuss yet that you'd like to cover before we close out the show? No. I think, currently, we we discussed all the programs that we run and the future,  

[00:33:10] Unknown:

programs that we plan to  

[00:33:12] Unknown:

implement. So I think we've covered it all. And so 1 of the other things that we didn't dig into particularly   is the Python package index and most notably the recent work to move it to a new technical platform that has,   sort of unstuck it from being able to add new features and capabilities   and also help it scale both in terms of the,   system capabilities,   but also in terms of the capabilities of people contributing to it.   So I'm wondering if you can talk through the role that the PSF played in that effort. Sure. So part of what the packaging work group did,  

[00:33:48] Unknown:

when it first started was apply for a grant,   from the Mozilla Open Source Support   Fund.   And we were lucky enough to receive a grant from from the Moss team to help unstick   PIPI, so to speak. So we received we received the funds in 2016, and and the work happened through 2016   and and early 2017.   And the team what what happened was the   packaging work group outlined the work that needed to be done, and they hired contractors,   for the work. And   with a great team,   they were able to   to execute that very smoothly.   And in 2017 early 2017,   the the warehouse code base was rolled out.  

And since then, the packaging work group has been applying for additional grants. You know, I'll be honest, they haven't been working hard to get these grants. So the money is out there for for this work to be done. We've actually had more trouble finding contractors to do the work than to get the money to hire the contractors, which is which is an unusual problem for us.   So recently, they've   they've, received an OTF grant, which,   has been working on accessibility.   And then I know there's a Facebook grant, which   is still   not entirely,  

[00:35:07] Unknown:

sure what we're gonna use that for, but definitely some some security features. Yeah. It's definitely great seeing the the new face of the package index because for quite a long time, it's been functional, but not necessarily   accessible in terms of just the overall layout and system design. So it's great that it's been modernized a bit and that they've laid a good foundation for the package index going forward. Exactly. And and kind of what you alluded to earlier is is all the work that's been put in has has opened up the door for volunteers to contribute.  

[00:35:38] Unknown:

So there's there's a lot of interest from volunteers   to help improve things and add new functionality. So that's always a great   a great  

[00:35:47] Unknown:

thing. Well, for anybody who wants to get in touch with you and the PSF and follow along with the work that you're doing, I'll have you add your preferred contact information to the show notes. And so with that, I'll move us into the pics. And this week, I'm going to choose the keynote that Russell Keith Magee gave at this year's PyCon talking about some of the potential black swans for the Python language.   It's definitely   worth a look and gets you thinking about different, things that we should be considering going forward as a community and the language ecosystem. So with that, I'll pass it to you, Eva. Do you have any picks this week? I do. And it kind of bounces off what you just said. 1 of the big things in Russell Keith McGee's,  

[00:36:24] Unknown:

keynote was,   making sure that we're investing in r and d.   And a great way to invest in r and d and making sure that our community is sustainable is donating to the PSF. So as I mentioned earlier,   PSF currently has its fundraiser,   going on, and our goal is to reach   $60, 000 by the end of this month. So for those of you that can donate, please go to python.org  

[00:36:45] Unknown:

and click any of those donate buttons. Alright. Well, thank you very much for taking the time today to join me and discuss the work that you're doing with the PSF and the services that the PSF provides to the community.   Thank you for all of your work on that front, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks so much. Super grateful for this opportunity. It's good night right now.